feuling problem
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Stage III
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3
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From: Romania
feuling problem
I have a problem with the fueling 8011 cam plate and 7060 oil pump..everything is new..when I let the bike for 3 to 7 days half the oil in the oil tank disappear and the bike starts harder..after that(in 30 seconds to 1 minute) the oil comes back to the normal level the pressure on the oil pressure gauge is 55 psi with cold oil after that another problem in the oil tank I see foaming and bubbles I dont think its water or moisture because its the same summer or winter..and if I ride the bike for about 5 miles it starts to struggle like its want to stop my lifters are feuling 4000 hp+ the engine is stock 88 (FLSTCI) from 2001 the pushrod is fuelmoto with 4 turns and 2 flat preload I noticed that with this preload I have good torque but cant resolve the problem with the disapperaing oil and engine struggle. I used amsoil 20 w50 and redline 20 w50. With the stock camplate and oil pump the bike was ok I tried to realign the oil pump but still the same problem..for over 1 year now I cant resolve this problem,what could be the problem? Maybe the bubbles (air) in the oil get in the lifters and they dont stay armed..?i verified the orings gaskets everything looks good..
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From: san antonio
The oil leaking past the gerotors in the oil pump; common problem with softails and OEM pumps as well. Most all will leak down over time; some more than others. It's really not a problem, just start the bike and let it idle for a while to pull the oil out of the cam chest back into the tank and never check oil level cold; always check when hot after a ride. If it really bugs you, call Fueling and see what they have to say.
As for the bubbles, also not unusual to see some aeration of the oil. Again, the oil pump is the source; the scavenge side of the pump gulps air once the oil in the dump is pulled out.
The Fueling oil pump has not been a favorite of this and other HD forums; neither has the cam plate. You might consider running the OEM pump; seems you did not have this problem with the OEM cam plate and pump.
As for the bubbles, also not unusual to see some aeration of the oil. Again, the oil pump is the source; the scavenge side of the pump gulps air once the oil in the dump is pulled out.
The Fueling oil pump has not been a favorite of this and other HD forums; neither has the cam plate. You might consider running the OEM pump; seems you did not have this problem with the OEM cam plate and pump.
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From: Honah Lee
A couple things. The bubbles are normal since it's the return side being scavenged and dumped into the top of the tank. So it's pretty whipped up.
Try a OEM filter. That is where the check valve is. Mine leaks down but it's very slow. Say half a stick in a few months.
Try a OEM filter. That is where the check valve is. Mine leaks down but it's very slow. Say half a stick in a few months.
Last edited by Jackie Paper; Jan 10, 2018 at 09:26 AM.
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From: san antonio
The oil filter does have an anti drain back valve to keep oil in the filter when the motor is not running. However, the drain down from the oil tank into to cam chest is controlled, or not, by the scavenge side of the oil pump. The wave washer is supposed to keep enough tension on the gerotors to offset the gravity drain from the tank. Most softails will drain from the tank into the cam chest, some are just worse than others. Changing oil filters will have no effect on oil tank drain down.
I agree that a few air bubbles at the top of the tank is normal; that is not air entrained oil. However, it is possible to have excessive aeration of the oil which can lead to valve train noise and other issues resulting from air entrained oil which is quite different from seeing a few bubbles floating at the top of the tank. Air entrained oil will have a distinct color difference from oil in its normal state and will present as a murky brown color. The Axtell Oil Bypass valve is one way to reduce the possibility of air entrainment and some have claimed a reduction in valve train noise resulting from using the Axtell hardware.
Some use a pair of plastic clamping pliers on the oil supply line from the tank to prevent oil drain down from the tank.
EDIT: BTW, some oils tend to aerate more than others, so an oil change might help the OP with the air bubbles issue but there will be bubbles near the return entry into the tank with any oil.
I agree that a few air bubbles at the top of the tank is normal; that is not air entrained oil. However, it is possible to have excessive aeration of the oil which can lead to valve train noise and other issues resulting from air entrained oil which is quite different from seeing a few bubbles floating at the top of the tank. Air entrained oil will have a distinct color difference from oil in its normal state and will present as a murky brown color. The Axtell Oil Bypass valve is one way to reduce the possibility of air entrainment and some have claimed a reduction in valve train noise resulting from using the Axtell hardware.
Some use a pair of plastic clamping pliers on the oil supply line from the tank to prevent oil drain down from the tank.
EDIT: BTW, some oils tend to aerate more than others, so an oil change might help the OP with the air bubbles issue but there will be bubbles near the return entry into the tank with any oil.
Last edited by djl; Jan 10, 2018 at 10:40 AM.
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From: Honah Lee
Not disagreeing with what djl says about oil leaking past the wave washer and o-ring in the oil pump. However, the oil is draining back from the suction side of the pump. The oil can go in two directions either thru to the scavenge side thru the wave washer and around o-ring or into the crank area.
However, I threw the oil filter just in case and an easy fix just in case. On a TC, the oil filter is used to filter after the oil pump and then to engine lubrication. That pressure goes into filter pushing open check valve. On a TC, it's main function is to not let the system drain the oil off the pump side. Not necessarily keep filter full. However, if working correctly, it will do both.
Another thought I missed above is you have way too much idle oil pressure for a TC driven in a hot climate for street light idle and such. The oil injectors that cool the cylinders on a street Harley are not intended to work at idle where the oil pressure should be 12 PSI or less. Pressure for the high end should be around 35 controlled by the relief valve.
However, I threw the oil filter just in case and an easy fix just in case. On a TC, the oil filter is used to filter after the oil pump and then to engine lubrication. That pressure goes into filter pushing open check valve. On a TC, it's main function is to not let the system drain the oil off the pump side. Not necessarily keep filter full. However, if working correctly, it will do both.
Another thought I missed above is you have way too much idle oil pressure for a TC driven in a hot climate for street light idle and such. The oil injectors that cool the cylinders on a street Harley are not intended to work at idle where the oil pressure should be 12 PSI or less. Pressure for the high end should be around 35 controlled by the relief valve.
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From: san antonio
I think Ripsaw and I are saying the same thing. True that the oil drains back via the suction side of the pump but typically ends up in the crank case sump via the scavenge gerotor rather than past the o-ring into the cam chest. That is why the OP has noticed harder starting; the crank is churning through a dry sump that is full of oil. Poor choice of words in my previous post and should have been more clearly stated.
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From: Honah Lee
Yes, we are saying oil is ending up in Sam place. I was just hoping it was by way of filter even it it was wishful thinking.
You would think if the sump had enough oil to cause a hard start, you would thing it would may it like the battery was weak.
I was not quite sure what was ment by hard starting. I know on my TCb FI, if I do not stay on start switch till it is running and I hit the start button again, mine is hard to start.
His older TC normal runs with a little more then 1/2 quart in the primary for cam shaft inner bearings. If oil is still on bottom of stick, that means there is about 1 1/2 qts in there. I really would not think that would make it hard to start unless battery life was near it's end.
You would think if the sump had enough oil to cause a hard start, you would thing it would may it like the battery was weak.
I was not quite sure what was ment by hard starting. I know on my TCb FI, if I do not stay on start switch till it is running and I hit the start button again, mine is hard to start.
His older TC normal runs with a little more then 1/2 quart in the primary for cam shaft inner bearings. If oil is still on bottom of stick, that means there is about 1 1/2 qts in there. I really would not think that would make it hard to start unless battery life was near it's end.
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Joined: Jun 2006
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From: san antonio
I have three bikes, two Harleys and a BMW R9T so if I stick to a regular rotation, the softail might sit for weeks between rides. My work/travel schedule gets in the way and I ride for fun so I don't ride much from December to March; not cold in south Texas but not my idea of great riding weather. All bikes are on battery tenders and both Harleys have compression releases; however, when starting the softail after sitting for weeks, even with the compression releases open, I can definitely tell the difference between that cold start and a hot start as there is a slight but noticeable drag on the turnover.
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From: poway
Oil should not drain back into the motor from the scavenge side pump on a softail no mater what is going on with the pump. The return side should have a stand pipe in the oil tank to stop it from happening. The only oil that can flow back there will be the whats in the line.
The issue with the fueling pump is likely the clearance on the feed gerotor. Fueling pumps don't have a wavy washer like stock pumps to maintain 0 clearance on the gerotors and keep the oil from flowing through the pump and into the motor. It can either be a punched O ring is keeping the pump from seating or the gerotor side clearance is too high..
It's possible that the cam-plate is not sealing with the case at the feed side also..
I've seen issues where the fueling rotor clearance is too high on a Dyna and FXR (at least it's my belief) .. When they sit oil drains out of the filter into the motor. Startup takes a few seconds for pressure to build.
The issue with the fueling pump is likely the clearance on the feed gerotor. Fueling pumps don't have a wavy washer like stock pumps to maintain 0 clearance on the gerotors and keep the oil from flowing through the pump and into the motor. It can either be a punched O ring is keeping the pump from seating or the gerotor side clearance is too high..
It's possible that the cam-plate is not sealing with the case at the feed side also..
I've seen issues where the fueling rotor clearance is too high on a Dyna and FXR (at least it's my belief) .. When they sit oil drains out of the filter into the motor. Startup takes a few seconds for pressure to build.