yes another cam thread...
Thread Starter
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Tourer
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 293
Likes: 27
From: Beaumont Ca
yes another cam thread...
I know i know... another cam thread...
I have been reading, reading, and reading for days on end about cams. And while there is so much information out there, theres a lot of heresay/non information as well.
i have a pretty decent cam understanding for cars and max effort NA stuff (specifically LS engines)
However im getting kind of lost on these bike cams and what these Harley engines want.
I have a 2014 Fat Bob with the 103" engine. I am kinda getting tired of the typical Stage 1 stuff and want to put a set of cams in it.
I currently have about 25K miles on it, it has a basani road rage 2-1 exhaust, K&N intake system, FuelPak FP3 and a barnett heavy clutch spring
I am looking at 3 different cams, Andrews 48H, Andrews 57H and the S&S MR013 cams. I want to stick with drop in..
The bike is fairly light, i ride fairly aggressively and tend to be hanging out around the 2500-3500 rpm range.
I am leaning heavily towards the MR103 cam but i keep reading about the 48 and the 57's. I have no plans to pull the heads and increase compression at this time.
Thanks for any input
I have been reading, reading, and reading for days on end about cams. And while there is so much information out there, theres a lot of heresay/non information as well.
i have a pretty decent cam understanding for cars and max effort NA stuff (specifically LS engines)
However im getting kind of lost on these bike cams and what these Harley engines want.
I have a 2014 Fat Bob with the 103" engine. I am kinda getting tired of the typical Stage 1 stuff and want to put a set of cams in it.
I currently have about 25K miles on it, it has a basani road rage 2-1 exhaust, K&N intake system, FuelPak FP3 and a barnett heavy clutch spring
I am looking at 3 different cams, Andrews 48H, Andrews 57H and the S&S MR013 cams. I want to stick with drop in..
The bike is fairly light, i ride fairly aggressively and tend to be hanging out around the 2500-3500 rpm range.
I am leaning heavily towards the MR103 cam but i keep reading about the 48 and the 57's. I have no plans to pull the heads and increase compression at this time.
Thanks for any input
Cruiser
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 108
Likes: 9
From: Stanton,Tn
I just installed the MR 103 cams on my 2014 Slim & i love them. Still fighting a minor tuning issue rite now in the lower rpm range (1600 to 2200), but, that's a combination of my exhaust & I think a learning curve on my tuning skills & nothing to do with the cams themselves. I have a couple of friends running the 48's & another running the Woods 222 cams & for the most part, I can pull ahead of them out messing around.We haven't just dead on raced tho & 2 of them are Street Glides & heavier.I also don't weigh but about 130 soaking wet myself.
Even tho it wasn't 1 you mentioned, I will add that the Woods cams do seem to be substantially louder than mine, or, the 48's as far as engine noise.
I also used S&S Premium lifters in mine.
The MR 103 cams, according to S&S were specifically designed for the stock head/stock compression 103 motor.Honestly tho, I don't think you'll go wrong with them, or, the Andrews 48. No experience at all with the 57's.
Even tho it wasn't 1 you mentioned, I will add that the Woods cams do seem to be substantially louder than mine, or, the 48's as far as engine noise.
I also used S&S Premium lifters in mine.
The MR 103 cams, according to S&S were specifically designed for the stock head/stock compression 103 motor.Honestly tho, I don't think you'll go wrong with them, or, the Andrews 48. No experience at all with the 57's.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,599
Likes: 5,175
From: SWMO
I know i know... another cam thread...
I have been reading, reading, and reading for days on end about cams. And while there is so much information out there, theres a lot of heresay/non information as well.
i have a pretty decent cam understanding for cars and max effort NA stuff (specifically LS engines)
However im getting kind of lost on these bike cams and what these Harley engines want.
I have a 2014 Fat Bob with the 103" engine. I am kinda getting tired of the typical Stage 1 stuff and want to put a set of cams in it.
I currently have about 25K miles on it, it has a basani road rage 2-1 exhaust, K&N intake system, FuelPak FP3 and a barnett heavy clutch spring
I am looking at 3 different cams, Andrews 48H, Andrews 57H and the S&S MR013 cams. I want to stick with drop in..
The bike is fairly light, i ride fairly aggressively and tend to be hanging out around the 2500-3500 rpm range.
I am leaning heavily towards the MR103 cam but i keep reading about the 48 and the 57's. I have no plans to pull the heads and increase compression at this time.
Thanks for any input
I have been reading, reading, and reading for days on end about cams. And while there is so much information out there, theres a lot of heresay/non information as well.
i have a pretty decent cam understanding for cars and max effort NA stuff (specifically LS engines)
However im getting kind of lost on these bike cams and what these Harley engines want.
I have a 2014 Fat Bob with the 103" engine. I am kinda getting tired of the typical Stage 1 stuff and want to put a set of cams in it.
I currently have about 25K miles on it, it has a basani road rage 2-1 exhaust, K&N intake system, FuelPak FP3 and a barnett heavy clutch spring
I am looking at 3 different cams, Andrews 48H, Andrews 57H and the S&S MR013 cams. I want to stick with drop in..
The bike is fairly light, i ride fairly aggressively and tend to be hanging out around the 2500-3500 rpm range.
I am leaning heavily towards the MR103 cam but i keep reading about the 48 and the 57's. I have no plans to pull the heads and increase compression at this time.
Thanks for any input
Tourer
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 486
Likes: 155
From: British Columbia
Based on the RPM range you say you run in I'd look in to a Zippers Red Shift .575 lift cam. They work well with factory compression , valve springs and respond even better down the road with upgraded heads and compression. Now if you want to top off the package get yourself a Thundermax self tuning ECM. Select a tune from the list of variables closest to your particular engine state of build and let it self tune. Timing does not self tune though. But easy enough to do from the program and by making subtle single point or across the range adjustments from your laptop (while in the garage/driveway) then test ride feeling response change or listening for ping. However, my experience is that these canned tunes are real close and previously dyno and road tested prior to being added to the menu listings by Thundermax. Hope that helps. Check out Zippers web site for further details.
Thread Starter
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Tourer
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 293
Likes: 27
From: Beaumont Ca
So to be honest I've never really paid attention to the rpm range that I "ride" in.
So today on my way home I switched to display over to the tach and rode how I typically do.
My range seemed to be between 2500-4500. I do bring the rpm up above 4500 but not typically.
But I also spend a lot of time on the freeway (probably 80% of the time) in 6th at about 80-90 mph which is somewhere around 3k -3500 of I remember right
So today on my way home I switched to display over to the tach and rode how I typically do.
My range seemed to be between 2500-4500. I do bring the rpm up above 4500 but not typically.
But I also spend a lot of time on the freeway (probably 80% of the time) in 6th at about 80-90 mph which is somewhere around 3k -3500 of I remember right
Thread Starter
|
Tourer
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 293
Likes: 27
From: Beaumont Ca
Based on the RPM range you say you run in I'd look in to a Zippers Red Shift .575 lift cam. They work well with factory compression , valve springs and respond even better down the road with upgraded heads and compression. Now if you want to top off the package get yourself a Thundermax self tuning ECM. Select a tune from the list of variables closest to your particular engine state of build and let it self tune. Timing does not self tune though. But easy enough to do from the program and by making subtle single point or across the range adjustments from your laptop (while in the garage/driveway) then test ride feeling response change or listening for ping. However, my experience is that these canned tunes are real close and previously dyno and road tested prior to being added to the menu listings by Thundermax. Hope that helps. Check out Zippers web site for further details.
I just installed the MR 103 cams on my 2014 Slim & i love them. Still fighting a minor tuning issue rite now in the lower rpm range (1600 to 2200), but, that's a combination of my exhaust & I think a learning curve on my tuning skills & nothing to do with the cams themselves. I have a couple of friends running the 48's & another running the Woods 222 cams & for the most part, I can pull ahead of them out messing around.We haven't just dead on raced tho & 2 of them are Street Glides & heavier.I also don't weigh but about 130 soaking wet myself.
Even tho it wasn't 1 you mentioned, I will add that the Woods cams do seem to be substantially louder than mine, or, the 48's as far as engine noise.
I also used S&S Premium lifters in mine.
The MR 103 cams, according to S&S were specifically designed for the stock head/stock compression 103 motor.Honestly tho, I don't think you'll go wrong with them, or, the Andrews 48. No experience at all with the 57's.
Even tho it wasn't 1 you mentioned, I will add that the Woods cams do seem to be substantially louder than mine, or, the 48's as far as engine noise.
I also used S&S Premium lifters in mine.
The MR 103 cams, according to S&S were specifically designed for the stock head/stock compression 103 motor.Honestly tho, I don't think you'll go wrong with them, or, the Andrews 48. No experience at all with the 57's.
Cruiser
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 108
Likes: 9
From: Stanton,Tn
I plan on trying out my FP3 first, if im not happy with the results then ill have it dyno tuned. The FP3's are married to the bike, so its literally throwing money away if i dont even try it first. Not like i can sell it to someone else.
I will definitely look into that option, im going to try out my FP3 first since i already have it. If i dont like how it performs ill have it dyno tuned.
That is good to know, thank you for the information. Im also looking into using SBC lifters, i have some really nice high end Comp ones here as well as a semi set of Cranes and even a set of LS7 lifters. If these dont work then i planned on the S&S ones
I will definitely look into that option, im going to try out my FP3 first since i already have it. If i dont like how it performs ill have it dyno tuned.
That is good to know, thank you for the information. Im also looking into using SBC lifters, i have some really nice high end Comp ones here as well as a semi set of Cranes and even a set of LS7 lifters. If these dont work then i planned on the S&S ones
FWIW, Fuel Moto sells a kit at about the best price out there that i've seen. It includes S&S cams, (other brands too), S&S premium lifters, install kit with bearings, O rings, Fuel Moto adjustable push rods, &, Cometic gasket kit. You can get it with, or, without the lifters, but, I would urge you to consider seriously getting the lifters, especially if you have very many miles on the motor. They will provide better oiling to the top end & they are also much quieter in operation, reducing engine noise quite a bit.At least they did in my motor.
Last edited by Breeze1962; Aug 21, 2019 at 04:20 AM.
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HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,453
Likes: 4,711
I know there are lots of things about using LS lifters in the HD engines but I have to wonder whats what. S&S sells quick adjust pushrods and says they are fine to use, but say LS lifters are bad. Now they say it is due to slower oil delivery to the heads. So if we look at the oil feed hole that supply's the oil to the pushrod and the hole through the pushrod either one of those will regulate the amount of oil that gets to the head. If the lifter feeds more oil than the pushrod will allow due to a restriction then the pushrod is the limiter not the lifter, and the same goes for the lifter if its the restriction.
So the oil feed hole from the lifters are:
HD lifter 0.093"
LS lifter 0.077"
S&S lifter 0.112"
Oil feed hole through pushrod:
HD OEM pushrod 0.095"
SE pushrod 0.095"
S&S Quickie pushrod 0.051"
While I have run all of the above with no problems, the S&S Quickie adjustable pushrod by far has the smallest feed hole of everything and if it's OK to use as S&S states, I do not see why the LS lifter could be a problem. You all have to make-up your own minds but things just do not add up here IMHO.
So the oil feed hole from the lifters are:
HD lifter 0.093"
LS lifter 0.077"
S&S lifter 0.112"
Oil feed hole through pushrod:
HD OEM pushrod 0.095"
SE pushrod 0.095"
S&S Quickie pushrod 0.051"
While I have run all of the above with no problems, the S&S Quickie adjustable pushrod by far has the smallest feed hole of everything and if it's OK to use as S&S states, I do not see why the LS lifter could be a problem. You all have to make-up your own minds but things just do not add up here IMHO.
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Thread Starter
|
Tourer
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 293
Likes: 27
From: Beaumont Ca
I know there are lots of things about using LS lifters in the HD engines but I have to wonder whats what. S&S sells quick adjust pushrods and says they are fine to use, but say LS lifters are bad. Now they say it is due to slower oil delivery to the heads. So if we look at the oil feed hole that supply's the oil to the pushrod and the hole through the pushrod either one of those will regulate the amount of oil that gets to the head. If the lifter feeds more oil than the pushrod will allow due to a restriction then the pushrod is the limiter not the lifter, and the same goes for the lifter if its the restriction.
So the oil feed hole from the lifters are:
HD lifter 0.093"
LS lifter 0.077"
S&S lifter 0.112"
Oil feed hole through pushrod:
HD OEM pushrod 0.095"
SE pushrod 0.095"
S&S Quickie pushrod 0.051"
While I have run all of the above with no problems, the S&S Quickie adjustable pushrod by far has the smallest feed hole of everything and if it's OK to use as S&S states, I do not see why the LS lifter could be a problem. You all have to make-up your own minds but things just do not add up here IMHO.
So the oil feed hole from the lifters are:
HD lifter 0.093"
LS lifter 0.077"
S&S lifter 0.112"
Oil feed hole through pushrod:
HD OEM pushrod 0.095"
SE pushrod 0.095"
S&S Quickie pushrod 0.051"
While I have run all of the above with no problems, the S&S Quickie adjustable pushrod by far has the smallest feed hole of everything and if it's OK to use as S&S states, I do not see why the LS lifter could be a problem. You all have to make-up your own minds but things just do not add up here IMHO.
I agree... one of the things ive done with SBC's in the past and also with my latest LS build is to use restricted pushrods to limit top end oiling... If the inner diameter of the "quickee" pushrods really are .051" then what does it matter... I need to measure the comp and crane lifters i have as well they may have a larger orifice.
The only thing i can really foresee being an issue might be plunger travel and pre-load. Maybe its just me but im not sold on this whole "adjustable" pushrod thing either... What kind of spring pressures do these engines run?
Cruiser
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 108
Likes: 9
From: Stanton,Tn
I think the main point being made in the S&S video was the amount of time it takes for the oil to reach the heads at lower oil psi provided by the HD pump & the thicker viscosity of the oil used in an HD motor & not just the amount of oil. After 6 minutes of idle time, the SBC lifter still hadn't gotten any oil to the rocker arms.Also, according to S&S, the tolerances on the premium lifters are much better than the HD, or,the SBC lifter.You also have to consider the tolerances & integrity of the rollers & bearings in the S&S lifter compared to the standard HD lifter, or, SBC lifter.I'm sure the aftermarket high performance SBC lifters are better, but, some of the OEM lifters are pretty sloppy.
I can't say that I'm getting better oiling to my top end with the S&S lifters becuz I haven't checked it,but, I can say, my motor is considerably quieter now even with a cam that has much higher lift & steeper ramps. I'm using Fuel Moto adjustable push rods, which if IIRC, have the .095" orifice.Maybe the adjustment is why it's quieter.Maybe it's the S&S lifters, or, a combination of both. IDK. I just know that it is noticeably quieter now.
I can't say that I'm getting better oiling to my top end with the S&S lifters becuz I haven't checked it,but, I can say, my motor is considerably quieter now even with a cam that has much higher lift & steeper ramps. I'm using Fuel Moto adjustable push rods, which if IIRC, have the .095" orifice.Maybe the adjustment is why it's quieter.Maybe it's the S&S lifters, or, a combination of both. IDK. I just know that it is noticeably quieter now.
Last edited by Breeze1962; Aug 21, 2019 at 12:18 PM.