Gear Drive or Hydraulic Conversion? HD 103" Upgrade?
Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 27
Likes: 8
From: Miami Florida
Gear Drive or Hydraulic Conversion? HD 103" Upgrade?
Getting Fellow Forum Members,
I recently purchased a really sweet 2004 Road King Custom EFI.
I've just tooled it around my little town and wont chance a longer ride on it till I can get the Tensioner pads checked.
But looking towards the future I wish to try to eliminate this issue all together.
(1). As far as I understand the gear driven conversion is the best. But that is contingent on the runout. If its .001 were good but more it might not be an option.
That means a Hydraulic conversion. I will do all the upgrades, new oil pump and rotor, completely new plate and all components and most likely a cam. A complete and comprehensive update/upgrade.
(2). Experienced Wrenches Plese Throw In: Which kit is the superior kit? Fueling, S&S or who? I'm ok with expensive as long as it's the best, is complete and has everything.
(3). If I have the money down the road, I was thinking about the Harley Davidson Engine Upgrade plan and upgrading to a 103". I have a friend who is a service writer for an HD here in Miami and I am going to ask for a complete estimate of the cost. But are these new engines still plagued with cam tension issues?
I really love this bike. I'd really love to keep this bike, but this cam chain issue may be the reason I don't unless I can remedy it and have the bike completely reliable.
Any wisdom here is greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
miaminice
I recently purchased a really sweet 2004 Road King Custom EFI.
I've just tooled it around my little town and wont chance a longer ride on it till I can get the Tensioner pads checked.
But looking towards the future I wish to try to eliminate this issue all together.
(1). As far as I understand the gear driven conversion is the best. But that is contingent on the runout. If its .001 were good but more it might not be an option.
That means a Hydraulic conversion. I will do all the upgrades, new oil pump and rotor, completely new plate and all components and most likely a cam. A complete and comprehensive update/upgrade.
(2). Experienced Wrenches Plese Throw In: Which kit is the superior kit? Fueling, S&S or who? I'm ok with expensive as long as it's the best, is complete and has everything.
(3). If I have the money down the road, I was thinking about the Harley Davidson Engine Upgrade plan and upgrading to a 103". I have a friend who is a service writer for an HD here in Miami and I am going to ask for a complete estimate of the cost. But are these new engines still plagued with cam tension issues?
I really love this bike. I'd really love to keep this bike, but this cam chain issue may be the reason I don't unless I can remedy it and have the bike completely reliable.
Any wisdom here is greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
miaminice
Last edited by miaminice; Aug 16, 2022 at 04:35 PM.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,778
Likes: 2,608
From: san antonio
If you or the previous owner have no paid the "Harley Tax" and opened up the intake and exhaust; you might want to consider that upgrade along with replacing the tensioners. Gear driven cams are the way to go. Runout should be less than .003"; more and hydraulic would be plan B. JMHO, but the S&S cam plate and oil pump combo is as good as they get. There are higher priced parts but no need to pay more than what the S&S costs.
As far as engine upgrade, you can go up to 100" with an HD or aftermarket kit; a DIY project with a top end rebuild. Once you pull the lower unit and split the cases, you can go up to 124" and several configurations in between depending on stroke and bore combinations. JMHO but I rather rebuild on my cases and lower unit that go the HD reman or upgrade plans. The '07 up motors are equipped with the hydraulic tensioners and roller chain; still a maintenance item but not subject to catastrophic failure like the early spring loaded tensioners.
If going bigger than 100" you might consider sending the crank to Darkhorse for truing, balancing and welding.
Welcom to the Rabbit Hole
As far as engine upgrade, you can go up to 100" with an HD or aftermarket kit; a DIY project with a top end rebuild. Once you pull the lower unit and split the cases, you can go up to 124" and several configurations in between depending on stroke and bore combinations. JMHO but I rather rebuild on my cases and lower unit that go the HD reman or upgrade plans. The '07 up motors are equipped with the hydraulic tensioners and roller chain; still a maintenance item but not subject to catastrophic failure like the early spring loaded tensioners.
If going bigger than 100" you might consider sending the crank to Darkhorse for truing, balancing and welding.
Welcom to the Rabbit Hole
Thread Starter
|
Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 27
Likes: 8
From: Miami Florida
Thanks, djl,
Yeah, the rabbit hole is right. I really wish I had known about the cam chain tensioner issue before I bought this bike. But it's really a sweet bike and I really love it.
I'm hoping that the run out is good enough to get the mechanical conversion done.
I'll know somewhere down the road once i get it in to get checked.
I'm also questioning the rationale of the Hydraulic conversion if it's just a better band aid on a problem that will continue to exist.
Thats when I started thinking about just a swap out to a bigger and better motor. Hence the reference to HD's long black program. But there again unless I'm mistaken, they are still using Hydraulic tensioner system.
Everyone seems to agree that as far as quality the S&S engines are the top of the heap. If they made complete bikes, they would be back ordered for years until they eventually put HD out of business.
Do the S&S engines use a gear driven system?
Thanks for the input. Much appreciated.
miaminice
Yeah, the rabbit hole is right. I really wish I had known about the cam chain tensioner issue before I bought this bike. But it's really a sweet bike and I really love it.
I'm hoping that the run out is good enough to get the mechanical conversion done.
I'll know somewhere down the road once i get it in to get checked.
I'm also questioning the rationale of the Hydraulic conversion if it's just a better band aid on a problem that will continue to exist.
Thats when I started thinking about just a swap out to a bigger and better motor. Hence the reference to HD's long black program. But there again unless I'm mistaken, they are still using Hydraulic tensioner system.
Everyone seems to agree that as far as quality the S&S engines are the top of the heap. If they made complete bikes, they would be back ordered for years until they eventually put HD out of business.
Do the S&S engines use a gear driven system?
Thanks for the input. Much appreciated.
miaminice
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,778
Likes: 2,608
From: san antonio
The HD long block motors do use the OEM hydraulic tensioner system which is more than a band aid but the tensioner shoes are a "consumable" so IMHO, checking every 20-25K miles is a good idea. With the roller chain, once the tensioner wears enough for the roller to come in contact with the tensioner, wear is supposed to slow down as the roller "rolls" over the tensioner material with minimal wear.
S&S motors, all that I have seen anyway are equipped with EZ start gear drive cams.
S&S motors, all that I have seen anyway are equipped with EZ start gear drive cams.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 10,819
Likes: 7,454
From: OH
There are 10`s of thousands of these engines out there with an untold aggregate number of miles.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,685
Likes: 2,087
From: Massachusetts
If you go gear,drive you have to change the cams to accept the gears. Depending on the conversion kit, you may also need different cams. I think ( if I recall) Harley makes a hybrid kit that allows you use the old cams with the new plate and hydraulic tensioners.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 5,315
Likes: 4,272
From: Granville New York
The hydraulic cam setup is very reliable and some people have gone 100k or more on that setup with proper maintenance. What will shorten the lifespan is crank runout, thats what I would be worried about. Check that and if it's. 003 or less do the gear drive if you're burning money or go chain drive and use that savings for a tuner/dyno tune on the motor build...and forget about putting a harley Long block, short block whatever in it because it will come nicely equipped with junk lifters and bearings. Check your crank runout and build appropriately from there.
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HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,778
Likes: 2,608
From: san antonio
EDIT: The hybrid kit includes hydor tensioners outer and inner; roller chain outer and Morse link chain inner.
Last edited by djl; Aug 17, 2022 at 05:57 PM.
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Road Captain
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 659
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From: Sierra foothills
Hybrid kit I used from Harley used stock early style cams with newer style roller chain and hydraulic tensioner and sprockets in front and original morse silent chain and with a new hydraulic tensioner in back. No spring tensioner in back. Early 99-06 or is it 07? cams came with sprockets ground in for the morse silent chain so you have to keep that, but a later hydraulic tensioner works on the silent chain. But still a wear item maybe because of chain design. I ran a woods 9b like that. No issues
Me personally, I switch to later style 07-up cam support plates and tensioners, sprockets and chains and use conversion cams. Roughly same price as going gear drive and more forgiving. No special tools required. I've heard internet stories of them failing but have not personally seen or heard of one failing
Me personally, I switch to later style 07-up cam support plates and tensioners, sprockets and chains and use conversion cams. Roughly same price as going gear drive and more forgiving. No special tools required. I've heard internet stories of them failing but have not personally seen or heard of one failing
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,778
Likes: 2,608
From: san antonio
Hybrid kit I used from Harley used stock early style cams with newer style roller chain and hydraulic tensioner and sprockets in front and original morse silent chain and with a new hydraulic tensioner in back. No spring tensioner in back. I've heard internet stories of them failing but have not personally seen or heard of one failing
It is rare to see a rear tensioner failure from the Morse chain on the hydro tensioner but without the roller chain the Morse chain will wear on the tension; still a better setup that the spring loaded tensioner.IMHO, if gear drive is affordable; thats the way to go assuming run out is within acceptable limits.
Last edited by djl; Aug 17, 2022 at 05:58 PM.