Hi,

Is the lift an issue on the 585?with the stge4 kit when you clay the piston get a little bit of imprint

Thanks
Mirrmu

 

I know it sounds stupid to go backwards, but the tuner said he'll put some nice cams in it so I'll be smooth and make the same or more torque as the stage 4 did, and really isn't torque in the real world where its at? Also this might sound picky but the high compression pistons gave the V&H long shots a real sharp note, I really preferred the deep rumble of the stock pistons. One thing, I took off on the stage 4 bike the other day and didn't give it the 4 hours the St 4 needs to warm up and left from a standing start from a tee junction and the bike popped almost stalled and fell over mid corner. Thanks for all the awesome advice too guys....

 

Please allow me to cloud the issues a little in these posts with my expeirances with a stage 4 kit in my 2010 Heritage, and a S&s cam in my 120R trike.

First the stage 4 kit in the Heritage. I know it's a "B" motor and makes a differance on performance from a "A" motor. My build includes the bigger TB and Harley heads, but no extra work to the heads.

I also had the gear change (trans pulley) done. I luv the way it runs.
For me it feels tame around town untill I crank it hard when I hit 2nd gear. The tire breaks loose and gets it gets squirly. The tq is there for me. On the freeway, the gearing is great and the sweet-spot at 70mph in 6th is 3100 rpm. Super roll-on power. For me, and the way I ride, I would not change a thing.

Now for the Trike. I had the 103 motor with 255 cams pulled out. It was replaced with a HD 120R motor and 266 cams that are stock.

The Trike is very heavy and needs a lot of TQ. After break-in a dyno tune was attempted. The tuner tech admitted he wasn't happy with the tune at high rpms but coud not get it perfect.

I could get the Trike 100+ easy but would ping real bad!! I didn't need 100+ on a Trike, although it was fun.

The pinging was so bad that I refused to ride it and started posting my problems and asking questions. I was at the point of pulling the 120r out and havin the 103 put back-in.

With the help of people on hear and PM's sent, two things happened.

A bud came over and took a lot of timeing out so I could ride it without ping damage and get a proper tune. The appointment was made.

The second thing was a lot of talk about the cams for my application.

My new dyno shop was getting done by a very, very good indy shop. We dicussed the cam issue. We agreed to put the S&S 585 cams in, w/o the mech compression releases, and a good tune.

What a differance. He and I agree, I hope I don't break a belt. Luv it!!

I really can't say which one was the answer cause I had both, cam and good tune done at the same time. But i sure like the 585 cam in a 120R Trike.

Bottom line to get back to OP post. Listen to the guys on here, They saved me a motor swap back to orignal. And even though it's a stage 4, it can be tuned to run correctly.

Long winded but it wasn't just a one-two step to get there either.

Later, eighty80.

PS. still own and ride both, just depends on what I want to do any given day.

 

A few things that are significant based on your posting above:

1. The tune is definitely NOT right. How do I know? Because you said "the 4 hours the Stage 4 needs to warm up" and "the bike popped almost stalled". These are CLASSIC symptoms of an inadequate dyno tune. In fact, my own bike with the Stage 4 kit exhibited both of these issues, after the HD dealership tune, until Mike Lozano tuned it correctly. You should not be assuming this is "normal" for this kit. The kit is aggressive enough that it requires a competent hand tuning to deliver its proper results.

2. Your comments on torque tell me you did indeed buy the wrong kit though. You want low rpm torque and are willing to give up high rpm power to get it. So, your tuner, who is as pointed out above not a particularly good tuner, is correct though when he says there are better cams for you. They can provide the low rpm torque, the idle smoothness, and the off idle throttle response to make those sharp left or right turns from a stop sign easier. I have been trying to get someone who knows cams to post a suggestion that will give you one or two specific cam recommendations, but just as when I myself asked "the critics" of my setup a few weeks ago to identify a better cam, the only ones suggested to me had virtually the same specs as the 259E I already have, and no one was able to explain to me how the subtle differences, like the differences between the S&S 585 versus the 259E, would "make the difference", so I concluded that many cam "experts" have "big hat but no cattle".

I hope that someone truly experienced and knowledgeable will make a cam suggestion to you, because you really need one given your powerband preferences, because your tuner obviously has you buffaloed as to his true skill level.. And I hope the guys that do make the cam suggestions will have the courtesy to explain why they recommend the specific cams that they do.

Jim G

 

Here is where you said it:

I agree with both of you that the rehearing might not be "necessary", but I also KNOW from past regearing of bikes that it will nevertheless be both helpful AND very noticeable in its effects on apparent "nimbleness" of the bike.

Note also that I have the Stage 4 race kit, not the Stage 4 street legal kit. Given that, why would the canned tune provided by HD be "lean" if, being a race kit, it does NOT need to meet emissions standards???

Jim G

And you telling others to read my posts with caution is truly hilarious, carry on.

 

Lift should not be an issue but claying the pistons is worth doing on any build IMHO. You will get an imprint with flat top pistons and clay. What is important is the thickness of the clay at the imprint. If greater than .060", AOK.

 

Cam replacement I understand, not really going backwards IMHO but just "dialing in" the motor to be more compatible with your riding style. The CCP can be reduced with cams that close the intake later which will change the exhaust note.

Your comment about taking off and the motor popping and stalling confirms for me that your tune is not right. Regardless of cams, exhaust, compression, etc., if the tune was dialed in, that would not happen. JMHO, but your tuner has some work to do in the low rpm range, something isn't right.

 

Jim,
To go into that discussion involves over lap, lobe centers, LSA, reversion, etc., etc., and the capacity of the listener to understand; present company excluded. I suggest that the question as to why cams with what appear to be similar profiles perform differently go the Google route and do some homework as I and others have done to come up with an answer. One of the biggest differences in the 259e and the S&S 585 is that the MoCo cam profiles are all impacted by the EPA, regardless of what the MoCo says and is one reason for the earlier exhaust close. While 10* earlier may not seem significant, that is another contributing factor to why the 585 performs better than the 259e.

Another reason, for most anyway, to accept that the 585 is a better choice than the 259e is because others have gone that route with very satisfactory results. Mike has told you of his results with that cam and, for me, I would take that to the bank.

I think we can all agree that:

1. the OPs tune is not right and that is the first thing the OP should get sorted out.
2. changing cams will improve rideability but, again, if the tune is off, the OP will not see the full benefit of the cam change.
3. the OP may have purchased the wrong kit but rideability can be managed without reverting to a Stage I or II configuration.

Whether the OP is on board with those points or not, who knows; his ride so he gets to decide.

 

My comment stands. Nothing in what you quoted above contradicts anything I have said here.

The Stage 4 canned tune comment is the one you have seriously misrepresented. Nowhere in it did I endorse long term use of it. As I have said in this thread and elsewhere, it would simply be foolish to pay a tuner to do a proper dyno tune BEFORE the break-in period was completed. In the quote you posted above, I was asking why HD would intentionally make the Stage 4 RACE kit canned tune too lean since on a RACE tune there is no need to comply with emissions regulations.

Jim G

 

djl: THAT is a good summary! And, thanks for the education on the 585.

Jim G