First off, please refrain from turning this into a my oil is better than your oil or even my engine is better than your engine type of thread.

According to my oil reports, it does appear my Ultima 113 engine may be developing a problem but I am not sure how severe the threat is and this post is about "Severity" .

I have sent an email to the lab to clarify their report. My main concern is down time, and if I can wait another couple thousand miles it will be well into fall and tearing things down will be much better for me. I hate to lose out riding during the prime season, and I don't have any local shop I trust to work on it for me. On the other hand I know it is better to fix something before it grenades and causes much more damage. It is still under warranty, which does run out in October.

I have heard tapping noise the past 2500 miles, sounds like the top end, I adjusted the push rods but that did not eliminate the noise. A couple weeks ago when it was on the dyno the fellow didn't even seem concerned about the noise, just said it is more noticeable because of the fairing etc. I don't know anyone else close by that I can trust to give a second opinion.


***** quote from latest oil report*****

JOSEPH: At first glance, it would appear that this engine liked the Harley Davidson 20W/50 better than the Mobil 1 V-Twin, though it's hard to make any definite decisions yet. If this engine saw any changes to it's operation, like more city driving and less highway use,that may account for the difference in wear. Aluminum and iron are still a lot higher than what we normally see from this type of engine, so we can't rule out a piston/cylinder problem developing. Other than the wear, things look just fine. If the engine is running well, check back in 2,500 more miles.


MI/HR onOil 2,425 2,500
MI/HR onUnit 7,500 5,000

ELEMENTS IN PARTS PER MILLION

date date

element - 08/16/09 - 06/29/09- Universal averages
ALUMINUM - 19 - 16 - 8
IRON - 51 - 35 - 17


****** end quote **********



Aluminum = Pistons, bearings, cases (heads & blocks).

Iron = Cylinders, rotating shafts, the valve train, and any steel part sharing the oil.


These elements are part per million and although being at 19 when average is 8 is very high, as well as the 51 compared to 17 my question is :

" Are these numbers high enough that it needs immediate attention or is is something I can monitor and plan on making repairs during the off season?"


Thanks in advance


joe


on edit: Although this engine was on a dyno last month, there were only 7 runs and a few of them were not even full throttle, I do not think it made any significant difference to the amount of wear. https://www.hdforums.com/forum/evo-c...-good-job.html



.

 

Man I know this can make you nutz. But there are some questions, This new motor was it installed to replace one that blew up? if so you test might be reading the old motors leftovers. Also did you change the oil Alot when the motor was first put in?. Changing at 50, 100, and 250 miles is something that will help flush out particulate from a new motor. Also did you change the filter when you changed the oil? Hopefully this higher the normal metal trend will subside with the next change. I would do a few more early changes then send another sample. If the numbers still seen high, then you may have to go looking for a problem.,,

 

The Big Cahuna brings up a good point, did you flush out your oil tank and replace your lines with the new install?? Have you tried a magnetic filter, they are available from Bikers choice and we put them on all new/re-built engines. Our FLHTC sounds like a thrashing machine, but it runs well and compression are staying the same. Check yhe things that I sent you in the reply to your E-Mail and get back to us. Hope this helps.
Your not going to make me take a ride to Pa. are you :-)???

 

I cannot help you out with your question, but I was wondering who you have doing your analysis?

 

Thanks to all, maybe I over reacted seeing the second report with higher than normal results.

I did flush the tank and change all the hoses when we changed engines and I have changed the oil and filter at about 50-150-250-500 etc. I lost track of all the times I changed it, but it was changed more often than required.


Today I received the following in an email email from Blackstone Labs
when I asked them if they felt I should tear down the engine:

*** begin quote***
Oh no, this is not a tear-down situation. Some engines simply make more metal than others (we call this the engine's "personality"), or it could be that we're just seeing lingering wear-in. If it's wear-in, metals should improve in the future, and you could help this process along with shorter oil changes (1500-2000 miles). I would not even think about tearing into it unless it's giving you trouble, or if metal increase to very high levels (50-100 aluminum, 200+ iron). For now, let's just wait and see how things progress. Chances are, this engine is going to be fine. Harley makes nice engines.

**** end quote

It's an Ultima engine, and with the couple posts by guys having trouble with lifters going bad makes me more critical. I am now thinking I will go back to the dino oil and do a couple 1000 mile oil changes to see if it improves. I never really drain all the oil, maybe it's just taking time.

overhead:

The lab is http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ and it's about $22.50, we usually send it in USPS Priority mail, both times within 3 days I have an email with a .pdf of the report.


on edit: Knowing the 50-100 aluminum, 200+ iron is the level that becomes critical also helps.

 

Thanks.

 

The comment regarding your motor liking HD conventional oil better than Mobil 1 was interesting. That was the conclusion I had with my motor (stock H.D. Evo), although I didn't do a oil test. Just noises, oil consumption, etc. was all much better with HD oil than the M1. Right now, I have HD conventional in the motor, Mobil SHC 630 in the trans and Mobil 1 ATF in the primary. I think I'll run it like that from now on.

 

I resurrected this in case any other individuals do a search to find out some experiences with oil analysis.

The latest oil analysis report from April 8 was not good either, and includes the following notes:

JOSEPH: Note the steady increase in iron. It's now at over 4 times average for this type of engine and had the oil
been run four time longer than average, this level would be okay. Unfortunately it wasn't (2,500 miles is an average oil
run for the 1340 Evolution), so we are now thinking that iron may show a problem developing at steel parts. With
aluminum being high, it could be at cylinders, though that's not increasing, so there may be something brewing in the
valve train or at bearings. Check back in 1,000 miles and keep an eye out for problems.

Well, after reading that I decided I could no longer wait so I started tearing it down. It appears the tapping and high iron may be from a bad lifter, the lifter for the front cylinder intake no longer has bearings, at least it feels that way. The normal iron level should be 17, this engine was was 35 at 5000 miles, 51 at 7500 miles and 80 at 10,000 miles. I am having trouble getting the rear lifter block loose so I am not sure about those lifters yet. The front rocker support appears to have some excessive wear as well, and the cam is scuffed up, but I did not remove it yet to see how much damage was done.

At least I now have a better idea what the numbers mean on the oil analysis reports....it was there all the time.

joe

 

Joe,

Sorry to hear your having problems with your 113. I read this with great interest because I installed a 113 in my Fatboy and have about 3000 miles. Have you decided how far your going to pull it down? If you have time please post updates as you dig farther into her. Thanks.

Bill

 

I was angry with Jireh but getting over it now. I wanted to change all the lifters as well as the cam. I ordered all the parts I needed after Jireh confirmed they were in stock and paid for expedited shipping - when the parts came there was no cam and a few other items. I called to confirm there was not a package missing and the salesperson told me "well, you got some of your parts" . Anyhow, that changed everything so I ended up just replacing the rockers, rocker supports, shafts and just the 1 bad lifter. I thought it would be best to wait until I replace the cam to replace all the lifters. The cam has a marking on it but I did not want to wait too long to use the bike.

I sent in another oil sample after 1000 miles and the numbers look much better , the aluminum dropped to below 3 (it was 17-19-16 at 2500 mile intervals) and the iron dropped to 24 ( it was 80-51-35 at 2500 mile intervals) Aluminum is now below the universal average, and the iron is a little higher than the universal average. I'll know better at 2500 miles.

The Blackstone report noted the changes and said they see "no indication" of problems. He also wrote the engine is NOT running hot because the insolubles are low - he added "Things look good!"

I did not tell them I changed parts, so they believe it is just the engine maturing. I am planning to send in another sample at 2500 miles for a better comparison, but so far I am optimistic and I may even wait until winter to change the cam and lifters. On the other hand if the oil analysis continues to look good, I may wait until it starts to get worse..or I hear some new problem developing.

I did change oil brands again, now using Valvoline VR-1 20W/50 and I plan on staying with it. The weather is really nice for us and we have been riding every day this week, just me and my wife with no particular place to go.

joe