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Make sure the cup is still timed with the cam.
On the back of the cup is a raised dimple that needs to set in the slot in the end of the cam.
If the bolt in the cup came a little loose the cup may have spun loose of it's alignment with the cam.
Originally Posted by 98hotrodfatboy
Definitely looks like there is debris in the hall effect pickup caused by rubbing of the rotor.. That debris will interfere with the making of the trigger signal to the coil.. And as said you need to figure out why the rotor came loose or is out of round rubbing on the ignition module..
Originally Posted by 98hotrodfatboy
Post up some pics of the rotor.. I've never seen one rub.. And if the pinion shaft run out is that much then the cam bushing is shot as well.. Not to mention the whine in the cam gear mesh...
Originally Posted by t150vej
Come on guys, for crying out loud! OP plainly stated:
He doesn't know mechanical history of bike (other than it was his Fathers)
NO timing cup damage and no debris in the area so:
Whatever caused the damaged pickup was obviously done, and then repaired before he got the bike. It just now chose to give out from the overlooked issue, namely - physically damaged module.
With the obviously damaged module, buying a Chinese engine because it won't start or looking at the cam go around for flywheel run out... I'm just not gonna speak to any of that insanity.
Originally Posted by Tommy C
The cup bolts to the end of the camshaft, so it's not possible to check the crankshaft runout by using a dial indicator on the ignition pickup cup. The cam cover needs to be removed and the dial indicator must be located to check the runout on the pinion shaft. You may want to edit your post so you don't confuse the OP.
Originally Posted by Dano523
With cup removed, and threaded rod to screw into the cup socket threads for indicator straight, you can check the cam shaft run out at end of shaft without having to pull the cover.
But the bigger one with the cup still in play( and making sure it bolted correctly in place as well), is to spin the motor to make sure is running concentric/ is not egged/bent to hell with in.out run out, and what took out the sensor in the first place.
My guess, either sensor was not bolted down tram to mounting surface to cant it to the cup, or cup bolt cam loose, and what took out the sensor pick up.
As for import engine, hate to break the news, but most of the parts for the HD's are not made in the states.
Take the lifters, since Johnson has not made them for HD in a long time, and guess where they are coming from now. https://fortune.com/2018/06/26/harle...tion-overseas/
am I missing something or is camshaft and crankshaft getting used interchangeably? the concern here is to do with the crankshaft runout correct? just wanna make sure Im on the same page.
I went ahead and ordered a new Ultima module, cleaned out the gas, and rebuilt the carb. put it all back together, set timing and all that stuff. Tried to fire the bike and got the same result. took the module out and now I have 2 bad module, same failure.
before I tried to start it, I did turn the back wheel a bunch and take the module out to check for any evidence of rubbing and found none. also took my time on everything so all was bolted down properly etc.
I cant tell by looking at the rotor if its bent or not. Im gonna tear into it a little more to check runouts of the crank and the rotor cup. Ill report back
anyone got a good method for checking the runout of the rotor off the bike so its separated from the crank?
Just shooting from the hip, and I don't want to send you down a rabbit hole, also not trying to kick a dog while it's down, but did you check the rotor cup for runout using any of the methods suggested?
I like the suggestion of chucking the cup in a slow moving drill to test for run out. A new cup is cheap enough, could just replace it, however even with a new cup, until thing are checked out thoroughly, don't go any further.
You could mount up something to measure CAMSHAFT end runout and endplay. Endplay is easy with feeler gauges. For runout, even harbor freight has some cheap tools to help you with this. Could fab up some type of a holder or use a magnetic holder and mount a fixed steel plate using a few existing bolt holes. Video link posted just to get an idea.
Also measure cam cover bushing and end of cam to check tolerances/play. Compare tolerances with specs in factory manual.
am I missing something or is camshaft and crankshaft getting used interchangeably? the concern here is to do with the crankshaft runout correct? just wanna make sure Im on the same page.
I went ahead and ordered a new Ultima module, cleaned out the gas, and rebuilt the carb. put it all back together, set timing and all that stuff. Tried to fire the bike and got the same result. took the module out and now I have 2 bad module, same failure.
before I tried to start it, I did turn the back wheel a bunch and take the module out to check for any evidence of rubbing and found none. also took my time on everything so all was bolted down properly etc.
I cant tell by looking at the rotor if its bent or not. Im gonna tear into it a little more to check runouts of the crank and the rotor cup. Ill report back
anyone got a good method for checking the runout of the rotor off the bike so its separated from the crank?
Why not simply take the plugs out, lay the module out of the way, and turn it with the starter?.... Look at the rotor while it's turning. If it appears to be going "up and down" remove it and turn the engine again with the starter and see if the cam itself is moving up and down.
Are you saying the new module is now chewed up like the old one was? Take a photo of the rotor especially near the windows (cutouts).
I'm not gonna guess at other (rare) possibilities. Do the simple stuff and figure out if, or why the rotor hit the module before tearing the side off the engine.
Just shooting from the hip, and I don't want to send you down a rabbit hole, also not trying to kick a dog while it's down, but did you check the rotor cup for runout using any of the methods suggested?
I like the suggestion of chucking the cup in a slow moving drill to test for run out. A new cup is cheap enough, could just replace it, however even with a new cup, until thing are checked out thoroughly, don't go any further.
You could mount up something to measure CAMSHAFT end runout and endplay. Endplay is easy with feeler gauges. For runout, even harbor freight has some cheap tools to help you with this. Could fab up some type of a holder or use a magnetic holder and mount a fixed steel plate using a few existing bolt holes. Video link posted just to get an idea.
Also measure cam cover bushing and end of cam to check tolerances/play. Compare tolerances with specs in factory manual.
Why not simply take the plugs out, lay the module out of the way, and turn it with the starter?.... Look at the rotor while it's turning. If it appears to be going "up and down" remove it and turn the engine again with the starter and see if the cam itself is moving up and down.
Are you saying the new module is now chewed up like the old one was? Take a photo of the rotor especially near the windows (cutouts).
I'm not gonna guess at other (rare) possibilities. Do the simple stuff and figure out if, or why the rotor hit the module before tearing the side off the engine.
as far as I can see it looks ok by looking at it. Yes, the new module is chewed up also. not as bad as the original but same kind of damage. I got some pictures of the rotor but there is not much to see. there was one very tiny black speck on it but I instinctively wiped it off when I saw it. I also scuffed the rotor up a little so I could see if any damage occured and as far as can tell none did (on the rotor)
I also put the rotor in a drill and it also still looked good, maybe a litle wobble but my drill chruck also has a little play in it. I ordered a new rotor just to be sure.
I ran out of time today but I am starting to think it may have to do with end play on the camshaft. The damage is in the lower part of the module (as in the rotor being too far in) Ill get in and check that some time this week.
I tried to check the camshaft runout with a threaded bolt but I think checking it with a bolt threaded into it is not very accurate. I was getting .025-.030 but I think I would be able to see that much by eye so it was probably the bolt throwing off the measurement. IDK
Put a screw back into the cam, grab it with vice grips to see how much the cam slides in and out. End play cannot be the cause. (you'll see what I mean if/when you take the cam cover off) Next, put the rotor back on the cam. Hold a straight edge vertical on the nose cone and measure to the edge of the rotor at the top and at the bottom. This will tell you if the rotor cup is kicked out at the bottom.
May be little if any consolation but regardless of what it turns out to be, whatever caused this is not a common failure. If the rotor is not warped/bent and it was seated in the index notch correctly but "leaning" it can only be one of three things in order of likelihood:
1 - inner cam bearing came apart letting the bearing end of the cam fall down.
2 - cam bushing in housing is seized and spun. Or, someone replaced that bushing and didn't ream it correctly. Either would make the seal leak bad too.
3 - the cam is broken. (but it wouldn't have compression on both cylinders)
Put a screw back into the cam, grab it with vice grips to see how much the cam slides in and out. End play cannot be the cause. (you'll see what I mean if/when you take the cam cover off) Next, put the rotor back on the cam. Hold a straight edge vertical on the nose cone and measure to the edge of the rotor at the top and at the bottom. This will tell you if the rotor cup is kicked out at the bottom.
May be little if any consolation but regardless of what it turns out to be, whatever caused this is not a common failure. If the rotor is not warped/bent and it was seated in the index notch correctly but "leaning" it can only be one of three things in order of likelihood:
1 - inner cam bearing came apart letting the bearing end of the cam fall down.
2 - cam bushing in housing is seized and spun. Or, someone replaced that bushing and didn't ream it correctly. Either would make the seal leak bad too.
3 - the cam is broken. (but it wouldn't have compression on both cylinders)
just realized I forgot to add the pictures to the last post. Ill add them now, as well as a couple more I just took.
what I mean by bottom of the pickup is, imaging that the cup was just a little longer, it would hit the backing plate of the module. Thats where the damage is and not on the "peak" of the pickup
I am getting in and out movement on the camshaft. I measured in 2 different ways, and it was .0165-.017.
To me it seems pretty difficult to measure the cup like you said because everything has to be so square and perfect for every measurement when we're talking thousandths of inches. maybe I'm overthinking it but I'm not seeing a good way to do it. I did do it and got the same measurement everywhere but how good is that measurement if it wasn't exactly square every time, ya know?
I just had a realization while typing this. I went back out and measured between the cup and the "mounting flange?" and its quite a difference as you can see on the picture.
The bolt holding the rotor to the cam - that's looks like a 1/2" head. Is that the bolt in there when you took it apart? Did someone turn down a bolt and re-thread? It's supposed to be a 10-32 x 3/4" flanged hex head. I can see how the cup could easily get warped with that one holding it on, especially if it were ever tightened down with the alignment notch not seated well in the cam.
Here's what I meant about measuring to see if the rotor cup was warped. Straight edge where the line is on the nose cone and measure to the cup edge (arrows). Was just a thought...
The bolt holding the rotor to the cam - that's looks like a 1/2" head. Is that the bolt in there when you took it apart? Did someone turn down a bolt and re-thread? It's supposed to be a 10-32 x 3/4" flanged hex head. I can see how the cup could easily get warped with that one holding it on, especially if it were ever tightened down with the alignment notch not seated well in the cam.
Here's what I meant about measuring to see if the rotor cup was warped. Straight edge where the line is on the nose cone and measure to the cup edge (arrows). Was just a thought...
Originally Posted by 98hotrodfatboy
I would start with the proper screw for the rotor.. It's very possible the bolt you are using is disturbing the rotor cup...
that is the bolt that was there. I have another rotor on the way with a bolt.
The bolt holding the rotor to the cam - that's looks like a 1/2" head. Is that the bolt in there when you took it apart? Did someone turn down a bolt and re-thread? It's supposed to be a 10-32 x 3/4" flanged hex head. I can see how the cup could easily get warped with that one holding it on, especially if it were ever tightened down with the alignment notch not seated well in the cam.
Here's what I meant about measuring to see if the rotor cup was warped. Straight edge where the line is on the nose cone and measure to the cup edge (arrows). Was just a thought...
Originally Posted by 98hotrodfatboy
I would start with the proper screw for the rotor.. It's very possible the bolt you are using is disturbing the rotor cup...
well ****. still no go after the new rotor cup. Checked fuel , spark, and compression 130 front, 140 rear. I took the pushrod covers off and discovered one bent pushrod and one with A LOT of up and down movement and looks to be adjusted all the way down and was loose (able to thread in and out by hand) this was on the front cylinder, rear seems ok. I also took the cam cover off and timing is still set correctly
next step seems to be to remove valve covers and check for what caused the bent pushrods? and hope they took all the damage.
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