96 fuel injection?
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,070
Likes: 2,115
From: Ohio
Phat 96, nice bike!
I did something that is not for a weak heart, I cut the M&M intake in half before the runner bends, removed the runner divider and tig welded it back together. Made it a single plenom, slightly opened and smoothed the runners that gave the EFI Evo a little more of the idle sound, still won't match the carb sound but better. EFI is sweet when working well and very versitile but can make you not sleep at nights trying to figure it out, expecially on a more complex build.
I did something that is not for a weak heart, I cut the M&M intake in half before the runner bends, removed the runner divider and tig welded it back together. Made it a single plenom, slightly opened and smoothed the runners that gave the EFI Evo a little more of the idle sound, still won't match the carb sound but better. EFI is sweet when working well and very versitile but can make you not sleep at nights trying to figure it out, expecially on a more complex build.
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,912
Likes: 2
From: Cave Creek, AZ
1997 Bagger, you are much more informed on working and understanding the finer points of your bike than I am with mine, I've considered switching to a carb but I would need a new tank, pet ****, carb and the list and work was costly. I've been lucky with the bike and the EFI on it so far, and I hope it will continue to problem free. Hope I don't jinx the ole girl.
Thanks for the compliment on my bike, it put a big smile on my face. Enjoy your summer, PHX right now is miserable.
Thanks for the compliment on my bike, it put a big smile on my face. Enjoy your summer, PHX right now is miserable.
Road Warrior
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,945
Likes: 3
From: Victoria, Australia
Mkizer, 1997 Bagger, and Phat 96--
In your individual quests for information on the Magneto Marelli FI system, I offer this procedure to set "cold idle" as something you may want to file away in the future as and if needed. If you already have this info please ignore.
Kudos for this to "Bob", the signatory in the following procedure:
regards,
V2
To all who have idle issues with their MM EFI:
Here is a down-and-dirty way to set COLD idle quality.
Overview:
Power Commanders can only affect A/F once the engine warms up to the point (280+) where the ECM releases control to the base map. Also time has some influence but that's not important to this proceedure.
The Throttle Position sensor, (TP) when rotated, will shift the entire A/F map, including idle, richer or leaner whether hot or cold. So we will use the TP to adjust cold idle quality when first fired up. Then use the PC to adjust hot idle A/F once the engine gets fully warmed up and the ECM makes PC access available.
Procedure:
1) THIS MUST BE DONE WITH A BIKE THAT IS COLD, AS IN NOT STARTED FOR THE DAY YET.
2) Remove/dig out the epoxy from the throttle position sensor screws. Then loosen top and bottom screws so you can rotate it.
3) What you are going to do is quickly adjust the TP sensor to get the engine to run at its best as soon as you fire up the motor. This must be done as quickly as possible as the engine temperature will start generating immediately and that will be a problem if you run the engine too long before getting the adjustment right.
4) Once you have got the engine to "be happy" running cold, re-tighten the TP screws. Remove the ECM fuse or disconnect the battery for 5 minutes to reset the idle stepper motor idle loop.
5) After setting the cold idle for best/happiest running, the hot idle speed may need to be readjusted. Before readjusting the hot idle speed ride the bike for 10-15 mins at highway speeds to make sure the engine is COMPLETELY up to operating temp.
6) Chances are good the A/F tuning will need to be readjusted because the baseline it worked from changed. Sometimes, depending on the engine mods, a bike will run better with a ZERO map in the Power Commander than the one used before the change. This happens because the procedure shifts the entire A/F mapping usually to the richer side and that helps a lot. However, there will also be areas that become too rich so it will pay to get it properly tuned. Unfortunately the procedure to get the cold idle quality good affects the hot idle speed and general mapping.
Hope this helps, and the above assumes all the MM system is in running (no dead sensors, wires, excess oil buildup in the TB, etc) condition and simply needs tweeking.
This procedure has worked for me for the past 8 years of tuning, but there are no garantees implied or expressed.
Hope this helps, Bob
In your individual quests for information on the Magneto Marelli FI system, I offer this procedure to set "cold idle" as something you may want to file away in the future as and if needed. If you already have this info please ignore.
Kudos for this to "Bob", the signatory in the following procedure:
regards,
V2
To all who have idle issues with their MM EFI:
Here is a down-and-dirty way to set COLD idle quality.
Overview:
Power Commanders can only affect A/F once the engine warms up to the point (280+) where the ECM releases control to the base map. Also time has some influence but that's not important to this proceedure.
The Throttle Position sensor, (TP) when rotated, will shift the entire A/F map, including idle, richer or leaner whether hot or cold. So we will use the TP to adjust cold idle quality when first fired up. Then use the PC to adjust hot idle A/F once the engine gets fully warmed up and the ECM makes PC access available.
Procedure:
1) THIS MUST BE DONE WITH A BIKE THAT IS COLD, AS IN NOT STARTED FOR THE DAY YET.
2) Remove/dig out the epoxy from the throttle position sensor screws. Then loosen top and bottom screws so you can rotate it.
3) What you are going to do is quickly adjust the TP sensor to get the engine to run at its best as soon as you fire up the motor. This must be done as quickly as possible as the engine temperature will start generating immediately and that will be a problem if you run the engine too long before getting the adjustment right.
4) Once you have got the engine to "be happy" running cold, re-tighten the TP screws. Remove the ECM fuse or disconnect the battery for 5 minutes to reset the idle stepper motor idle loop.
5) After setting the cold idle for best/happiest running, the hot idle speed may need to be readjusted. Before readjusting the hot idle speed ride the bike for 10-15 mins at highway speeds to make sure the engine is COMPLETELY up to operating temp.
6) Chances are good the A/F tuning will need to be readjusted because the baseline it worked from changed. Sometimes, depending on the engine mods, a bike will run better with a ZERO map in the Power Commander than the one used before the change. This happens because the procedure shifts the entire A/F mapping usually to the richer side and that helps a lot. However, there will also be areas that become too rich so it will pay to get it properly tuned. Unfortunately the procedure to get the cold idle quality good affects the hot idle speed and general mapping.
Hope this helps, and the above assumes all the MM system is in running (no dead sensors, wires, excess oil buildup in the TB, etc) condition and simply needs tweeking.
This procedure has worked for me for the past 8 years of tuning, but there are no garantees implied or expressed.
Hope this helps, Bob
Last edited by V2Evo96; Jul 4, 2009 at 04:07 AM. Reason: add Mkizer to address line
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,912
Likes: 2
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Thanks for posting this V2. This is a print and save in my file. V2 I would think that when turning the screw to tighten or going to the right it would slow it down and to loosen or turn left would speed up the idle? yes or no
Last edited by phat96; Jul 4, 2009 at 09:12 AM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,070
Likes: 2,115
From: Ohio
Bob,
Appreciate any info from a tuner throwed my way and will follow your procedure on the next intake project I'm working on, it makes sense because the ECM was set up for a stock engine.
It has took me forever (did I say forever) to DIY tune my engine with a Wego3 and scared to touch anything but understand your good base starting point.
I have nothing but respect for people who tune bikes daily and appreciate any info that they help others with
Appreciate any info from a tuner throwed my way and will follow your procedure on the next intake project I'm working on, it makes sense because the ECM was set up for a stock engine.
It has took me forever (did I say forever) to DIY tune my engine with a Wego3 and scared to touch anything but understand your good base starting point.
I have nothing but respect for people who tune bikes daily and appreciate any info that they help others with
Road Warrior
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,945
Likes: 3
From: Victoria, Australia
Phat 96,
Sorry I can't help with your question as both my bikes are carbed. I picked up the procedure from a site somewhere thinking it might come in handy some day, or to assist someone else.
I have a folder full of tech stuff I have saved over the years, and when I read this string I remembered the Marelli file so I pasted it in.
I hope someone can answer your question.
Regards,
V2evo96
Sorry I can't help with your question as both my bikes are carbed. I picked up the procedure from a site somewhere thinking it might come in handy some day, or to assist someone else.
I have a folder full of tech stuff I have saved over the years, and when I read this string I remembered the Marelli file so I pasted it in.
I hope someone can answer your question.
Regards,
V2evo96
Thread Starter
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Advanced
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
ok really need help now...... We went for a trip this weekend and put 650 miles on it and I just dealt with funky idle and not wanting to idle. Its actually kind of strange?? throughout the trip it would run fine until I come to a stop and then it would not take any gas until I let out the clutch and then it might fall on its face going through the gears cutting out? Then the strange thing happened and I was 1 block from home and I turned onto my street after we rode about 2 miles in the rain and it backfired and engine light came on and it died. I tried to start it and it backfired?? I finnaly got it to start and it would only run with about half throttle and just backfired for a good 25 seconds and then it cleared up and ran fine??? i have checked for engine codes and none are showing unless I am doing that wrong?? cycle the ignition twice after fuel pump?? I am glad it didnt leave us stranded but I am really wanting to find the problem, it runs really good until it gets warm and then it just has a mind of its own??? any help would be great!! thanks in advance
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,106
Likes: 12
From: SoCal
You have the old Magnetti-Marelli fuel injection which HD got rid of in 2002. Some folks who have not had problems swear by it, some folks (like me) have had nothing BUT problems and swear AT it.
If you intend to build and make changes, I suggest going to a carburetor. If you go to the Harley Tech Talk website there are entire threads dedicated on how to change the bike out complete with a listing of part numbers that you will need.
If you wish to stay with the M&M EFI, your choices are Power Commander or the HD Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner for the M&M bikes. Or you can change the whole thing out for a Zippers kit like I did.
My suggestion is to go carb. It's the cheaper option and just as dependable and easily tunable.
If you intend to build and make changes, I suggest going to a carburetor. If you go to the Harley Tech Talk website there are entire threads dedicated on how to change the bike out complete with a listing of part numbers that you will need.
If you wish to stay with the M&M EFI, your choices are Power Commander or the HD Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner for the M&M bikes. Or you can change the whole thing out for a Zippers kit like I did.
My suggestion is to go carb. It's the cheaper option and just as dependable and easily tunable.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,070
Likes: 2,115
From: Ohio
Items I've copied
Turn your ignition on for 3 seconds then off for 3 seconds, then back on for 3 seconds and off for 3 seconds and then finally just leave it on. The engine check light will rapidly flash soon after and then slowly start flashing any codes stored.
Its primitive, but you interpret number sequences from the (slower) number of flashes that occurs in similar on/off time sequence, any noticeably longer pause means that another sequence may follow. When you observe the rapid flash event again, that means the first code is complete, the next slower sequence of flashes will either be a new code or the same code just read.
Number sequences are no more than two digit responses, example:
1 to 9 flash sequence is code 1 to 9
1 flash, pause, followed by a sequence of multiple flashes is read as code 11 thru 19
11 = Throttle position sensor
12 = Barometric pressure sensor
14 = Engine temperature sensor
15 = intake air temp. sensor
16 = battery positive voltage
23 = front injector
24 = front ign. coil
25 = rear ign. coil
32 = rear injector
33 = fuel pump relay
35 = Tachometer (doesn 't apply on FLHR/C-I)
41 = Crankshaft position sensor
42 = camshaft position sensor
44 = bank angle sensor
52, 53, 54, and 55 = ECM problems requiring new ECM
56 = Crank position sensor/Cam position sensor signal error
Check codes first.
Turn your ignition on for 3 seconds then off for 3 seconds, then back on for 3 seconds and off for 3 seconds and then finally just leave it on. The engine check light will rapidly flash soon after and then slowly start flashing any codes stored.
Its primitive, but you interpret number sequences from the (slower) number of flashes that occurs in similar on/off time sequence, any noticeably longer pause means that another sequence may follow. When you observe the rapid flash event again, that means the first code is complete, the next slower sequence of flashes will either be a new code or the same code just read.
Number sequences are no more than two digit responses, example:
1 to 9 flash sequence is code 1 to 9
1 flash, pause, followed by a sequence of multiple flashes is read as code 11 thru 19
11 = Throttle position sensor
12 = Barometric pressure sensor
14 = Engine temperature sensor
15 = intake air temp. sensor
16 = battery positive voltage
23 = front injector
24 = front ign. coil
25 = rear ign. coil
32 = rear injector
33 = fuel pump relay
35 = Tachometer (doesn 't apply on FLHR/C-I)
41 = Crankshaft position sensor
42 = camshaft position sensor
44 = bank angle sensor
52, 53, 54, and 55 = ECM problems requiring new ECM
56 = Crank position sensor/Cam position sensor signal error
Check codes first.