Poor Bertha... stranded with electrical problems...
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Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 7
From: North Atlanta Area, GA
Thanks to everyone for all of the excellent advice! This forum rocks! You think you know some things, and then you get posts like in this thread, and you realize you don't know diddly!
After sitting on the battery tender overnight, Bertha cranked and started up just fine this morning. It was nice to hear her sing again! She's a Police bike, and she used to have all manner of lights, siren, radio, etc. My H-D Police parts catalog lists the stator as P/N 29970-88C, which is a 32-amp model. If I have to replace the stator and/or regulator, I will check out the Compu-Fire systems and get the highest output one they have. The combined 800 watts of stereo needs amps! But I wasn't even using the radio yesterday, and the amps were both turned off... so I know it isn't a current overdraw issue with them.
If it turns out to be the stator, what are the nut sizes for the compensating sprocket nut and the clutch hub mainshaft nut? The damn shop manual doesn't say and neither does my Clymer manual, and the compensating sprocket nut looks pretty big in the pictures. Just want to make sure I have a socket big enough to fit it.
Also, I don't have an air impact wrench. If it's the stator, is now the time to justify buying one?
How difficult is it to get the compensating sprocket nut and clutch hub nut off without an impact wrench? I do have a big-*** 1/2" drive breaker bar...
Also, thanks for the "finger-pinching-avoidance" advice. I read that in the service manual - but it does my tiny, worn-out brain good to hear it multiple times... maybe it will save a finger when/if the time comes!
Going to Autozone or Radio Shack shortly to get a digital multimeter to track down this pesky gremlin. My gremlin bell didn't work on this one...
After sitting on the battery tender overnight, Bertha cranked and started up just fine this morning. It was nice to hear her sing again! She's a Police bike, and she used to have all manner of lights, siren, radio, etc. My H-D Police parts catalog lists the stator as P/N 29970-88C, which is a 32-amp model. If I have to replace the stator and/or regulator, I will check out the Compu-Fire systems and get the highest output one they have. The combined 800 watts of stereo needs amps! But I wasn't even using the radio yesterday, and the amps were both turned off... so I know it isn't a current overdraw issue with them.
If it turns out to be the stator, what are the nut sizes for the compensating sprocket nut and the clutch hub mainshaft nut? The damn shop manual doesn't say and neither does my Clymer manual, and the compensating sprocket nut looks pretty big in the pictures. Just want to make sure I have a socket big enough to fit it.
Also, I don't have an air impact wrench. If it's the stator, is now the time to justify buying one?
How difficult is it to get the compensating sprocket nut and clutch hub nut off without an impact wrench? I do have a big-*** 1/2" drive breaker bar...Also, thanks for the "finger-pinching-avoidance" advice. I read that in the service manual - but it does my tiny, worn-out brain good to hear it multiple times... maybe it will save a finger when/if the time comes!
Going to Autozone or Radio Shack shortly to get a digital multimeter to track down this pesky gremlin. My gremlin bell didn't work on this one...
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,377
Likes: 222
If you have a Big breaker bar, that is the reccomended way to remove the compensator nut, you may need to put a cheater bar over it for more leverage. You can use an impact gun and lots of folks have, it's just not reccomended, since it can hammer on the stator and the crank trying to get it off. I've use the breaker bar way on my 89 several times over the years and it has worked.
Once it is off, it's good to really clean the threads on the nut and the shaft, then when reassembling, just one decent size drop of red locktite it all it takes to keep it on after it's been tourqued to specs. It's not reccomended to go crazy with the locktite because it will be a bear to get off again...
I do not know the sizes of the nuts on the clutch and the comp for you year. The clutch nut is small, so you're sure to have that one covered in the tool chest, the comp nut can be measured once you pull the primary and then a quick run to Sears or a HW should hook you up. I believe the one on my 89 is 1 1/8" but pls do not quote me on that.
Once it is off, it's good to really clean the threads on the nut and the shaft, then when reassembling, just one decent size drop of red locktite it all it takes to keep it on after it's been tourqued to specs. It's not reccomended to go crazy with the locktite because it will be a bear to get off again...
I do not know the sizes of the nuts on the clutch and the comp for you year. The clutch nut is small, so you're sure to have that one covered in the tool chest, the comp nut can be measured once you pull the primary and then a quick run to Sears or a HW should hook you up. I believe the one on my 89 is 1 1/8" but pls do not quote me on that.
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 640
Likes: 13
From: Hickory, NC area
My comp nut was a 1 1/2" socket. The bigger the socket the less necessary for an exact fit - there is plenty of surface area for contact. I agree you need a breaker bar and a cheater pipe on the end, but it isn't that bad. I never pulled the clutch part. Just did mine 2 weeks ago and once the comp stuff is off and the tensioner loosened, you can remove everything without touching the clutch pack. Maybe you are supposed to, but I never did - just wiggled the chain off the gear and pulled the whole thing out.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,447
Likes: 0
From: Danville Va, Providence NC
I advise everyone who does their own wrenching to buy an electric impact wrench. They aren't that expensive anymore, and pay for themselves very quickly. I also have an inverter, so I can use it out on the road when the wife brings the truck IF I have trouble. It is amazing what a little bit of impacting can do when it comes to a tight nut. The shock will often break the nut, when sweat, blood and tears just won't do it.
Good luck with the project. I haven't been into one, either.
Good luck with the project. I haven't been into one, either.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 15
From: Senoia, Ga., by way of Miami, Fl..
Hey Ken,
I'd definitly do the breaker bar instead of the impact, in this case..I love my impact, but, I've heard enough horror stories about hammering on the crank pin causing flywheel issues. I'd rather not take the chance in this area since the breaker bar works as well as it does.. If you get in a jam and dont care to buy a socket, let me know. I work in Marietta and have a pretty good supply of just about any socket you might need if you want to borrow it, you'll just have to come get it.. I also replaced mine recently and have it on the bench. I'll take a look to see exactly what size it is since mine's a '94 and should be the same..
I'd definitly do the breaker bar instead of the impact, in this case..I love my impact, but, I've heard enough horror stories about hammering on the crank pin causing flywheel issues. I'd rather not take the chance in this area since the breaker bar works as well as it does.. If you get in a jam and dont care to buy a socket, let me know. I work in Marietta and have a pretty good supply of just about any socket you might need if you want to borrow it, you'll just have to come get it.. I also replaced mine recently and have it on the bench. I'll take a look to see exactly what size it is since mine's a '94 and should be the same..
Thread Starter
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Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 7
From: North Atlanta Area, GA
I know you're all dying to find out Bertha's diagnosis. Well, read on...
Thanks to all for your posts!
Dr.Hess' How To Diagnose Your Charging System
Buy about a $10-20 digital multi meter. Fully charge the battery (overnight on a 1 Amp charger).
CHECK
Scale on DC Volts, around 20V max voltage scale. Nominal readings are given in brackets. Check voltage across battery terminals (12.8). Turn bike on. Check voltage (less than previous, ~12.0+, depending on headlight, accessories). Start bike and let idle. Check voltage (could be 12.0 to 15). Rev to about 2500. Check voltage (should be more than observed with bike on but motor not running, and more than with bike off. Ideally between 13 and 15.) Turn high beam on. Should be about the same, give or take a little. If the voltage is over 15 or 15.5-ish with a headlight on, I'd consider replacing the regulator and/or checking all grounds (battery to frame, regulator to frame in particular). If the battery voltage with the headlight on, bike not running is less than around 11.5-ish, I’d replace the battery. If it’s 10, it’s past it’s prime.
Battery, freshly charged, was 12.67 V with bike off, 12.34 with bike on but not running, 12.41 at idle, and only 12.46 at 2500 RPM. FAIL
If you pass the above tests, your system is most likely fine, including the regulator and stator. If you don't pass, then:
Bike off. Meter set on Ohms, medium-ish scale, like 20K or 200K Ohms max scale, depending on your meter. Pull stator plug. Ground the meter black lead to a good chassis ground, like a bolt or even the battery negative. With the red lead, touch a different part of the bike, like the engine case at an unpainted part or another bolt. Meter should read low ohms, like 0. If it doesn’t, you didn’t ground the black lead.
Meter read 0 ohms. PASS
With the red lead, touch each contact on the motor side (stator) of the plug (the part stuck in the case). Depending on if your case has a male or female plug, if you can't see the metal part/pin of the plug, you can put a paper clip in the hole and touch the paperclip with your meter red. Meter reading should be infinity on all pins. If it isn't, your stator is shorted to the case, replace.
Meter read infinity ohms. PASS
The following is for single phase systems. I don't have a multi-phase and haven't had to diagnose anyone elses, so I haven't dug into those systems.
Set meter to lowest ohm scale, like 200 Ohms, typically. (Note: Not 200K ohms). Check resistance between the two stator plug pins. Should be fairly low. My Book says 0.2-0.4 ohms. The spec is in your shop manual. If it is infinity, stator is blown open. If it is 0, stator is shorted to itself.
Meter fluctuated between 0 ohms and .1 ohms, and then eventually settled on 0.0 LIKELY FAIL
Set meter to AC Volts, 100V scale. Attach each meter lead to a stator pin. You may need to rig up some type of temporary plug. It is important that nothing can short to ground or to each other accidentally, or you will blow the stator if it wasn't blown before. An old plug off of your last regulator is a good way to do it, but, get creative and be careful. I can do it holding the leads on the pins once the bike is running, but I don't like to. Start bike. Voltage should vary with engine speed. Specs are in your shop manual, but 35V at a couple thousand RPM is probably about right. My book says 19-26 V / 1K RPM.
Meter read a whopping... are you ready?... 400 MILLIVOLTS output at 2000 RPM... MAJOR FAIL! It's the stator gone bad with essentially NO output.
If you passed that stator test and failed the first test, your regulator is shot. If you failed any part of the stator test, replace both regulator and stator.
Now I get to replace the stator AND the regulator... Compufire here I come, I guess. Their 40 amp, high-output, 3-phase stator/regulator/vented rotor kit is $400. Their single-phase, 32 amp stator/regulator kit is $250. I think I'll splurge and go with the "BIG UN"!
Buy about a $10-20 digital multi meter. Fully charge the battery (overnight on a 1 Amp charger).
CHECK
Scale on DC Volts, around 20V max voltage scale. Nominal readings are given in brackets. Check voltage across battery terminals (12.8). Turn bike on. Check voltage (less than previous, ~12.0+, depending on headlight, accessories). Start bike and let idle. Check voltage (could be 12.0 to 15). Rev to about 2500. Check voltage (should be more than observed with bike on but motor not running, and more than with bike off. Ideally between 13 and 15.) Turn high beam on. Should be about the same, give or take a little. If the voltage is over 15 or 15.5-ish with a headlight on, I'd consider replacing the regulator and/or checking all grounds (battery to frame, regulator to frame in particular). If the battery voltage with the headlight on, bike not running is less than around 11.5-ish, I’d replace the battery. If it’s 10, it’s past it’s prime.
Battery, freshly charged, was 12.67 V with bike off, 12.34 with bike on but not running, 12.41 at idle, and only 12.46 at 2500 RPM. FAIL
If you pass the above tests, your system is most likely fine, including the regulator and stator. If you don't pass, then:
Bike off. Meter set on Ohms, medium-ish scale, like 20K or 200K Ohms max scale, depending on your meter. Pull stator plug. Ground the meter black lead to a good chassis ground, like a bolt or even the battery negative. With the red lead, touch a different part of the bike, like the engine case at an unpainted part or another bolt. Meter should read low ohms, like 0. If it doesn’t, you didn’t ground the black lead.
Meter read 0 ohms. PASS
With the red lead, touch each contact on the motor side (stator) of the plug (the part stuck in the case). Depending on if your case has a male or female plug, if you can't see the metal part/pin of the plug, you can put a paper clip in the hole and touch the paperclip with your meter red. Meter reading should be infinity on all pins. If it isn't, your stator is shorted to the case, replace.
Meter read infinity ohms. PASS
The following is for single phase systems. I don't have a multi-phase and haven't had to diagnose anyone elses, so I haven't dug into those systems.
Set meter to lowest ohm scale, like 200 Ohms, typically. (Note: Not 200K ohms). Check resistance between the two stator plug pins. Should be fairly low. My Book says 0.2-0.4 ohms. The spec is in your shop manual. If it is infinity, stator is blown open. If it is 0, stator is shorted to itself.
Meter fluctuated between 0 ohms and .1 ohms, and then eventually settled on 0.0 LIKELY FAIL
Set meter to AC Volts, 100V scale. Attach each meter lead to a stator pin. You may need to rig up some type of temporary plug. It is important that nothing can short to ground or to each other accidentally, or you will blow the stator if it wasn't blown before. An old plug off of your last regulator is a good way to do it, but, get creative and be careful. I can do it holding the leads on the pins once the bike is running, but I don't like to. Start bike. Voltage should vary with engine speed. Specs are in your shop manual, but 35V at a couple thousand RPM is probably about right. My book says 19-26 V / 1K RPM.
Meter read a whopping... are you ready?... 400 MILLIVOLTS output at 2000 RPM... MAJOR FAIL! It's the stator gone bad with essentially NO output.
If you passed that stator test and failed the first test, your regulator is shot. If you failed any part of the stator test, replace both regulator and stator.
Now I get to replace the stator AND the regulator... Compufire here I come, I guess. Their 40 amp, high-output, 3-phase stator/regulator/vented rotor kit is $400. Their single-phase, 32 amp stator/regulator kit is $250. I think I'll splurge and go with the "BIG UN"!
If I was a betting man I'd bet dollars to do-nuts that it is the regulator/battery. Something usually has to short the stator to take it out like the Dr says.
Well, you would have lost that bet, Kabear... it was the stator. But thanks for the advice and info!
Pay heed to the "Don't smash your fingers when replacing the rotor(magnetic thing)" it really exerts a "pull" when replacing it. Also pay attention to any shims and their locations on the rotor and clutch housing.
I'll remember all that when I install the new rotor.
Good luck with plugging the leaks.
In for a penny, in for a pound...
Well, you would have lost that bet, Kabear... it was the stator. But thanks for the advice and info!
Pay heed to the "Don't smash your fingers when replacing the rotor(magnetic thing)" it really exerts a "pull" when replacing it. Also pay attention to any shims and their locations on the rotor and clutch housing.
I'll remember all that when I install the new rotor.
Good luck with plugging the leaks.
In for a penny, in for a pound...
I never pulled the clutch part. Just did mine 2 weeks ago and once the comp stuff is off and the tensioner loosened, you can remove everything without touching the clutch pack. Maybe you are supposed to, but I never did - just wiggled the chain off the gear and pulled the whole thing out.
Now there's a GREAT idea that will save me from having to remove the clutch! Thanks!
Now there's a GREAT idea that will save me from having to remove the clutch! Thanks!
Last edited by NorthGeorgiaHawg; Jun 14, 2010 at 07:44 PM.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,195
Likes: 3,085
From: NW AR
Set meter to AC Volts, 100V scale. Attach each meter lead to a stator pin. You may need to rig up some type of temporary plug. It is important that nothing can short to ground or to each other accidentally, or you will blow the stator if it wasn't blown before. An old plug off of your last regulator is a good way to do it, but, get creative and be careful. I can do it holding the leads on the pins once the bike is running, but I don't like to. Start bike. Voltage should vary with engine speed. Specs are in your shop manual, but 35V at a couple thousand RPM is probably about right. My book says 19-26 V / 1K RPM.
Meter read a whopping... are you ready?... 400 MILLIAMPS output at 2000 RPM... MAJOR FAIL! It's the stator gone bad with essentially NO output.
Meter read a whopping... are you ready?... 400 MILLIAMPS output at 2000 RPM... MAJOR FAIL! It's the stator gone bad with essentially NO output.
Thread Starter
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Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 7
From: North Atlanta Area, GA
It was, Doc. I initially typed "milliamps", but meant "millivolts". But now I think this new multimeter I bought is malfunctioning. It reads about -40 millivolts everywhere now - even when I connect it to my battery directly. I'm taking it back and getting another one tomorrow. I don't trust any results I've gotten with it now... (sigh)