Power vs Longevity
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Joined: Feb 2022
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From: California
I meant to ask, what is the safest top speed these things should be driven. Its not uncommon for me to dip into 120 mpr or so on the Ninja for short burst on the highway between groups of vehicles. I know these bigger bikes take longer to slow and are no where near as nimble as a crotch rocket so want to keep it safe.
Last edited by N2 Motorcycles; Feb 25, 2022 at 07:39 PM.
A bagger should not be compared to a sport bike, different animals, neither is good for a novice, but they still brake better than cars. As far as a safe speed, that isn't a number, that's common sense. 50mph while school is getting out is a helluva lot different than on the highway.
As far as nimble, here's a random clip on the YouTubez: It's all skill
As far as nimble, here's a random clip on the YouTubez: It's all skill
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Joined: Apr 2012
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From: Maryland
My 2 cents...
As a general rule, I tend to agree with the OP's father. Keep it stock/OEM for long term reliability. Generally, I'll limit modifications to items that address inherent design flaws (For example, the sportster clutch spring plate.). I may also address things that seem like bad ideas put in place to placate the GOVT (breather bypass, CAT converter etc).
My Nightster is probably an example of the extreme for me when it comes to deviating from stock. It has a Stage 1 with DJ's Target Tune. The only reason I did the Target Tune is because of the older tune strategy that came stock. That tune strategy used an AFR value of 14.6 as a switch to run closed loop - resulting in a large region of the the AFR table set to 14.6. Target tune provided the ability to richen that up and still run closed loop. The other mods to the Nightster are the breather bypass and dealing with the clutch spring plate. Otherwise the bike is mechanically stock.
My '18 Heritage is pretty much bone stock. I got a set of American Custom Exhaust slip-ons for it (haven't installed yet). I'll probably see if DJ or Fuelmoto has a tune to use and tweak the VE tables with my Power Vision. I may also, do a breather bypass (or maybe the Fueling vented dipstick or Trask Check M8). Other than that, the mods to the Heritage have been mostly functional (new seats, Clearview Shield with vent and fangs to deal with buffeting etc.).
For me, both of my bikes have enough performance/power for the riding that I do (cruising country/county backroads and general touring). Again, just talking about me, I don't see the need to pursue horsepower numbers etc. Perhaps a great hobby/interest for others, it's just not for me.
As a general rule, I tend to agree with the OP's father. Keep it stock/OEM for long term reliability. Generally, I'll limit modifications to items that address inherent design flaws (For example, the sportster clutch spring plate.). I may also address things that seem like bad ideas put in place to placate the GOVT (breather bypass, CAT converter etc).
My Nightster is probably an example of the extreme for me when it comes to deviating from stock. It has a Stage 1 with DJ's Target Tune. The only reason I did the Target Tune is because of the older tune strategy that came stock. That tune strategy used an AFR value of 14.6 as a switch to run closed loop - resulting in a large region of the the AFR table set to 14.6. Target tune provided the ability to richen that up and still run closed loop. The other mods to the Nightster are the breather bypass and dealing with the clutch spring plate. Otherwise the bike is mechanically stock.
My '18 Heritage is pretty much bone stock. I got a set of American Custom Exhaust slip-ons for it (haven't installed yet). I'll probably see if DJ or Fuelmoto has a tune to use and tweak the VE tables with my Power Vision. I may also, do a breather bypass (or maybe the Fueling vented dipstick or Trask Check M8). Other than that, the mods to the Heritage have been mostly functional (new seats, Clearview Shield with vent and fangs to deal with buffeting etc.).
For me, both of my bikes have enough performance/power for the riding that I do (cruising country/county backroads and general touring). Again, just talking about me, I don't see the need to pursue horsepower numbers etc. Perhaps a great hobby/interest for others, it's just not for me.
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Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Upstate New York
Thank you for the wisdom. I spoke with a guy that said not to buy a modern bike 96ci and up with over 25k miles if you don’t have maintenance records and know of it’s service interval history. He asked what my riding style is like, do I just want to cruise it or will I hammer on the throttle or stunt the bike etc. I will hammer on the throttle from time to time as I love the feel of having to hold on with the rush of wind blowing by as the bike accelerates as well as being able speed up quick enough to make safe passes when stuck behind slower moving traffic. I won’t be stunting and don’t need to blast everyone’s ear drums to make a statement about how loud my bike is. No offense to those who like their bikes super loud and maybe this is for performance reasons and is part of the equation I have yet to discover and understand.
This guy explained that the 88ci engines were bullet proof and that is why a lot of guys choose the 92 through 2006 bikes. He told me in 2007 when they introduced the 96ci that the crank shaft used was a two piece crank and that some people have the crank welded together and replace the stock bearings with Timken bearings at the crank to case bearing for lifetime durability.
A bit more about me. I typically buy things with the intent of never selling so I try to understand as much about it before buying. Once I make up my mind to buy I try to learn as much as possible so I know what to expect. I like consistency and knowing what I can expect from a piece of equipment that I will own. I’m not the got to have the latest and greatest type of person. No offense to those who are and can afford it. To each his own.
This guy explained that the 88ci engines were bullet proof and that is why a lot of guys choose the 92 through 2006 bikes. He told me in 2007 when they introduced the 96ci that the crank shaft used was a two piece crank and that some people have the crank welded together and replace the stock bearings with Timken bearings at the crank to case bearing for lifetime durability.
A bit more about me. I typically buy things with the intent of never selling so I try to understand as much about it before buying. Once I make up my mind to buy I try to learn as much as possible so I know what to expect. I like consistency and knowing what I can expect from a piece of equipment that I will own. I’m not the got to have the latest and greatest type of person. No offense to those who are and can afford it. To each his own.
Like you, when I find what I like, I hang onto it.
Last edited by Uncle G.; Feb 26, 2022 at 09:50 AM.
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From: California
For now money is the main deciding factor of what year and model I get. I like the look and option set on the Electra Glide. Im not sure Ill be able to afford a touring bike Id be proud to own anytime soon. Ill have to start looking into price differences between the Electra Glides, Road King and Heritage Softail Classic. Im trying to keep my buy in at or around $7k. If that is not reasonable let me know.
Last edited by N2 Motorcycles; Feb 26, 2022 at 11:22 AM.
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 279
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From: Southern Vancouver Island
Have a closer look at the touring bikes. The difference in comfort and handling over the soft tail models is night and day. In spite of their weight, they handle very nicely and are good for all day riding comfort. I currently ride an Ultra for the benefit of my wife (ie: plush passenger accommodations) but my favorite bar none is the Road King.
Depending on your budget, I would suggest anything 07 and up as Harley fixed the cam chain tensioner issues. Nothing wrong with twin cam engines at all. The whole crank shaft thing was overblown in my opinion unless you were just unlucky or running big horsepower in which case you can break almost anything.
The new M8 is by far my favorite Harley engine. Plenty of power in stock form but a simple cam swap really wakes it up. Whether you end up with a twin cam or M8, I would put a good torque cam in it, better exhaust, tune it and ride. Stock cams are designed to pass emissions tests. A good torque cam will maximize volumetric efficiency and really wake the engine up with no measurable impact on reliability. If anything, long term reliability may be improved as a properly cammed and tuned engine will run cooler.
Buy the very best clean low mileage used motorcycle that you can afford. Something in need of lots of work won't be a whole lot cheaper and will usually end up costing you far more in the long run.
Depending on your budget, I would suggest anything 07 and up as Harley fixed the cam chain tensioner issues. Nothing wrong with twin cam engines at all. The whole crank shaft thing was overblown in my opinion unless you were just unlucky or running big horsepower in which case you can break almost anything.
The new M8 is by far my favorite Harley engine. Plenty of power in stock form but a simple cam swap really wakes it up. Whether you end up with a twin cam or M8, I would put a good torque cam in it, better exhaust, tune it and ride. Stock cams are designed to pass emissions tests. A good torque cam will maximize volumetric efficiency and really wake the engine up with no measurable impact on reliability. If anything, long term reliability may be improved as a properly cammed and tuned engine will run cooler.
Buy the very best clean low mileage used motorcycle that you can afford. Something in need of lots of work won't be a whole lot cheaper and will usually end up costing you far more in the long run.
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Joined: Feb 2022
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From: California
I’ve had three Harleys starting with a 1991 EVO FLHS Electraglide Sport, what turned into the Road King in later years. Next was a 2004 Road King, now a 2018 Road King. So all three “modern” motors over the years. Each design has their share of aging issues. The EVOs notorious for leaking cylinder base gaskets, the Twin Cam for self destructing cam chain tensioners, the M8 engine sumping and transmission oil migration to primary drive case. My EVO leaked and I fixed it myself plus upgraded the cam. Twin Cam got a cam upgrade plus upgraded to hydraulic tensioners before the stock spring loaded failed, again I did the work. My M8, all stock, has never sumped and never migrated. As you, I keep things that work long term.
The first two bikes got mild cam upgrades just to bump up the low to mid range torque, kept the fuel economy and valve train longevity. The M8 stock doesn’t need this, I did bump the electronic tune to a Stage One which fixed a stock tune spark knock and lame idle. I’m not a drag racer but I enjoy the solid power when getting on the freeway or passing cars. I’m a fan of Electraglide type rubber mounted engines for long distance comfort.
Any bike design can have issues. My prior to Harley was a ‘72 450 Honda (ate a crankshaft bearing) a ‘79 750 Yamaha triple (mid RPM shudder, sh**y shifting 1 to 2) and a ‘86 Yamaha Virago 1000 (leaked oil from the PCV system out the back of the airbox down the rear RH side, sh**ty shifting 2 to 3).
The first two bikes got mild cam upgrades just to bump up the low to mid range torque, kept the fuel economy and valve train longevity. The M8 stock doesn’t need this, I did bump the electronic tune to a Stage One which fixed a stock tune spark knock and lame idle. I’m not a drag racer but I enjoy the solid power when getting on the freeway or passing cars. I’m a fan of Electraglide type rubber mounted engines for long distance comfort.
Any bike design can have issues. My prior to Harley was a ‘72 450 Honda (ate a crankshaft bearing) a ‘79 750 Yamaha triple (mid RPM shudder, sh**y shifting 1 to 2) and a ‘86 Yamaha Virago 1000 (leaked oil from the PCV system out the back of the airbox down the rear RH side, sh**ty shifting 2 to 3).
My first bike was a trike dirt bike a Yamaha Tri Moto 125 followed by a ‘85 Big Red followed by ‘86 350x and last dirt bike was ‘01 YZ250. The Ninja was my first street bike. I actually raced the 350x a hand full of times at Texas Rio Bravo MX dirt track. Only got a trophy once :/ 3rd place but I’ll take it.
Sounds like the problems you describe with the EVO are simple fixes for a shade tree mechanic like myself. The 2004 Road King had a twin cam engine. Now I need to go googling what a twin cam is. I thought twin cam started in 2007. I’m pretty sure I won’t have to worry about 103ci, 107ci or 114ci knowing money will be the biggest hurdle and deterrent.
I'm guessing you are a bigger guy your self as in height and weight? My understanding at this point is that touring bikes are best suited for bigger stronger guys.
EDIT: ok up to speed with twin cam terminology. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harl...win_Cam_engine
I was under the impression the ‘07+ 96ci was the only twin cam and not aware that the 88b was a twin cam. I still have a lot to learn.
Last edited by N2 Motorcycles; Feb 26, 2022 at 11:25 AM.
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Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 50
Likes: 8
From: California
Have a closer look at the touring bikes. The difference in comfort and handling over the soft tail models is night and day. In spite of their weight, they handle very nicely and are good for all day riding comfort. I currently ride an Ultra for the benefit of my wife (ie: plush passenger accommodations) but my favorite bar none is the Road King.
Depending on your budget, I would suggest anything 07 and up as Harley fixed the cam chain tensioner issues. Nothing wrong with twin cam engines at all. The whole crank shaft thing was overblown in my opinion unless you were just unlucky or running big horsepower in which case you can break almost anything.
The new M8 is by far my favorite Harley engine. Plenty of power in stock form but a simple cam swap really wakes it up. Whether you end up with a twin cam or M8, I would put a good torque cam in it, better exhaust, tune it and ride. Stock cams are designed to pass emissions tests. A good torque cam will maximize volumetric efficiency and really wake the engine up with no measurable impact on reliability. If anything, long term reliability may be improved as a properly cammed and tuned engine will run cooler.
Buy the very best clean low mileage used motorcycle that you can afford. Something in need of lots of work won't be a whole lot cheaper and will usually end up costing you far more in the long run.
Depending on your budget, I would suggest anything 07 and up as Harley fixed the cam chain tensioner issues. Nothing wrong with twin cam engines at all. The whole crank shaft thing was overblown in my opinion unless you were just unlucky or running big horsepower in which case you can break almost anything.
The new M8 is by far my favorite Harley engine. Plenty of power in stock form but a simple cam swap really wakes it up. Whether you end up with a twin cam or M8, I would put a good torque cam in it, better exhaust, tune it and ride. Stock cams are designed to pass emissions tests. A good torque cam will maximize volumetric efficiency and really wake the engine up with no measurable impact on reliability. If anything, long term reliability may be improved as a properly cammed and tuned engine will run cooler.
Buy the very best clean low mileage used motorcycle that you can afford. Something in need of lots of work won't be a whole lot cheaper and will usually end up costing you far more in the long run.
I looked at the Electra Glide Ultra Classics and saw a couple I liked but dang the budget.
Another thing that comes to mind with these full fairing bikes is heat. How do y’all keep the engines cool on these?
Not crazy about this paint scheme which is abundant in many different colors but looks the best in this and the red below imo.
I like this color package.
I like the custom style of the spoke wheels and brake disk but this makes me think cool for now while I’m single but no fun for the hun when another one comes into my life.
Not sure if this is a factory paint job.
I like the clean pin striping and blue gator seats.
Last edited by N2 Motorcycles; Feb 26, 2022 at 02:35 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2010
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From: CA
If high performance modifications are done right, by someone who knows what they are doing, a Harley motor will last a long time. Done by a hack, not so much.
A bone stock Harley ridden by someone who regularly thrashes it, does burnouts, full throttle shifts, redlines a cold motor, won't last as long as a highly modified one ridden a little more conservatively most of the time.
Regular maintenance makes a difference too, oil changes, belt adjustments, etc. go a long way towards keeping it running right for many thousands of miles.
A bone stock Harley ridden by someone who regularly thrashes it, does burnouts, full throttle shifts, redlines a cold motor, won't last as long as a highly modified one ridden a little more conservatively most of the time.
Regular maintenance makes a difference too, oil changes, belt adjustments, etc. go a long way towards keeping it running right for many thousands of miles.
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Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 3,182
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From: College Station, TX
For the funding you have, I think a low mileage EVO would be your best option, although I'd look for a 2012 up Twin Cam, but you may not find much in that range. They are not as powerful as the later twin cam and M8 engines, but are fairly easy to maintain and are reliable if cared for. There are a few things that need to be addressed over the long run, like hydraulic lifters and cylinder base gaskets. When replacing lifters, adding a torque cam will help with acceleration.
I'm just under 6' and about 180, I've owned several Touring models, including Twin Cam and M8 Road Glides. I've also owned Superglides and prefer the Touring bikes for comfort on the road. As others have mentioned, once rolling you don't notice the weight. In low speeds turn around maneuvers you needs to be aware and practice until you are comfortable with it.
Paul
I'm just under 6' and about 180, I've owned several Touring models, including Twin Cam and M8 Road Glides. I've also owned Superglides and prefer the Touring bikes for comfort on the road. As others have mentioned, once rolling you don't notice the weight. In low speeds turn around maneuvers you needs to be aware and practice until you are comfortable with it.
Paul