DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 3
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
Leaning a bike does not make it turn. You can run straight down the road leaning the bike. You lean while turning so that gravity counters the centrifical force produced from turning. Fail to counter that and you dump it on the high side. You turn due to the component of the friction on the front tire perpendicular to it's plane of rotation. No friction, no turn. No turn of the wheel, no turn of the bike. Lean it all you want but as long as that front tire continues to point straight ahead you're going straight ahead.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 17,880
Likes: 9,633
From: Big Pine Key, FL
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
ORIGINAL: cray49a
CURIOUS. How many of you use counter-steering predominantly?
When I learned to ride (way back when)I never did. Of course, I never used the front brake either back in those days.
But about 3 years ago a pocket rocket friend of mine gave me a book to read on riding techniques. I've been counter-steering ever since. MORE IMMEDIATE and EXACTING CONTROL especially in exigent circumstances.
I have a bud who doesn't believe in it. But, he's stubborn old school.
CURIOUS. How many of you use counter-steering predominantly?
When I learned to ride (way back when)I never did. Of course, I never used the front brake either back in those days.
But about 3 years ago a pocket rocket friend of mine gave me a book to read on riding techniques. I've been counter-steering ever since. MORE IMMEDIATE and EXACTING CONTROL especially in exigent circumstances.
I have a bud who doesn't believe in it. But, he's stubborn old school.
Without getting into another conversation about gyroscopic precession: If you press right to go right, and press left to go left, you're countersteering. It's pretty much automatic after you start moving above 10 mph. If you don't believe me, get your bike up to about 45 mph, and try turning left by actually turning the handlebars to the left.
I'm kidding of course. Don't try that.
Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
From: Alabama
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
[quote]ORIGINAL: faber
Countersteering is a must, above a certain speed.
But you really can't do it at parking lot speed. You do the opposite, really. (Keep the bike upright, weight on outside peg, turn bars into turn....) Countersteering seems to take over above 15-20 mph.
This.
I discovered the term on a forum one night and did some investigating, including a couple of youtube videos on the subject. Found out I'd been doing it all along, but being conscious of doing it sure improved my driving skills.
As for having a choice in counter steering or not, try turning your bars into a curve at speeds over 15-20 mph. You'll end up in a ditch or worse.
my $.02
Countersteering is a must, above a certain speed.
But you really can't do it at parking lot speed. You do the opposite, really. (Keep the bike upright, weight on outside peg, turn bars into turn....) Countersteering seems to take over above 15-20 mph.
This.
I discovered the term on a forum one night and did some investigating, including a couple of youtube videos on the subject. Found out I'd been doing it all along, but being conscious of doing it sure improved my driving skills.
As for having a choice in counter steering or not, try turning your bars into a curve at speeds over 15-20 mph. You'll end up in a ditch or worse.
my $.02
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,106
Likes: 12
From: SoCal
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
ORIGINAL: wallyn
Yup, Chad Nailed it!
This guy is NOT countersteering. He is driving like a car. Note the handlebars are turning into the turn not straight ahead or left as they should be in the case of countersteering.
Note racers hang off the side of their bike to increase the inside weight so they do not need to lean the bike over as far in a high speed turn. For those of you going HUH! ... If the rider stayed in the center of the bike during a high speed turn the required lean angle fora given speed is greater than the required lean angle if the mass of the rider is shifted toward the inside of a turn for the same speed. That is why they try to drag a knee, They are trying to get the smallest radius turn without over leaning and unloading the tires.
ORIGINAL: chadriggs
This discussion can be put to rest by studying this picture for about 3 seconds. This guy is leaning like a champ but his bike ain't turnin'. The missing component? Countersteer.
ORIGINAL: cray49a
This guy is NOT countersteering. He is driving like a car. Note the handlebars are turning into the turn not straight ahead or left as they should be in the case of countersteering.
Note racers hang off the side of their bike to increase the inside weight so they do not need to lean the bike over as far in a high speed turn. For those of you going HUH! ... If the rider stayed in the center of the bike during a high speed turn the required lean angle fora given speed is greater than the required lean angle if the mass of the rider is shifted toward the inside of a turn for the same speed. That is why they try to drag a knee, They are trying to get the smallest radius turn without over leaning and unloading the tires.
In addition to braking in the curve, the rider in the pic is NOT countersteering, and probably rolled off the throttle which is why he has lost much of his ground clearance. Failure to negotiate a curve is probably the number one reason for most bike accidents. Most of the time it's single vehicle involved.Now maybe in some instances there was a dog or deer the rider had to swerve around, but most of the time the rider just ran off the road. And one of the reasons this happens is that if a rider does not understand and practice countersteering in corners, then when the defecation engages the ventillation, like Wallyn said, they revert back to driving a car, and try and turn the handbars into the turn like they turn the steering wheel to make the front wheels turn tighter. All this does is cause them to cross over into the incoming lane and run right off the road.
The common (not hard and fast) scenario is that a:
1. Rider enters a turn faster than he feels comfortable with.
2. Rolls off the throttle (we can do this in a car). This causes the bike to become unstable.
3. Applys brakes while the bike is leaned over in corner. (we can do this in a car) This causes the bike to want to stand up and go straight.
4. Turns the bars INTO the turn thinking he will turn tighter (like turning the wheel in a car). This causes the bike to cross over and run off the road.
Excellent points guys!
Banned
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 956
Likes: 2
From: SoCal
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
Well I'll tell ya, this is all very interesting. I personally don't know how I get around corners, but I do. I know that is disapointing to some of you more thoughtful kinda guys, but it seems to work, whatever the hell I'm doing. Good Lord.
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Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,186
Likes: 6
From: Gray's Creek NC
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
After reading this post earlier today I went riding and did some experimenting. Sure as the world if you push right the bike goes left and vice versa. I guess I have been doing countersteering without really thinking about it. I just sort of fall into a curve by dropping the bike and then applying some power to stand it up through the curve. I know that is not a real clear description, but it is the best I can do. One question, once you are going down, as in too much lean angle, can you pull out to upright by countersteering? Seems like you could, at least it sounds right in theory.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,762
Likes: 22
From: right down from the FloraBama
RE: DO YOU COUNTER-STEER?
ORIGINAL: Paniolo
I don't like to play back seat rider and Monday morning QB to anyone, but you guys hit it on the head.
In addition to braking in the curve, the rider in the pic is NOT countersteering, and probably rolled off the throttle which is why he has lost much of his ground clearance. Failure to negotiate a curve is probably the number one reason for most bike accidents. Most of the time it's single vehicle involved.Now maybe in some instances there was a dog or deer the rider had to swerve around, but most of the time the rider just ran off the road. And one of the reasons this happens is that if a rider does not understand and practice countersteering in corners, then when the defecation engages the ventillation, like Wallyn said, they revert back to driving a car, and try and turn the handbars into the turn like they turn the steering wheel to make the front wheels turn tighter. All this does is cause them to cross over into the incoming lane and run right off the road.
The common (not hard and fast) scenario is that a:
1. Rider enters a turn faster than he feels comfortable with.
2. Rolls off the throttle (we can do this in a car). This causes the bike to become unstable.
3. Applys brakes while the bike is leaned over in corner. (we can do this in a car) This causes the bike to want to stand up and go straight.
4. Turns the bars INTO the turn thinking he will turn tighter (like turning the wheel in a car). This causes the bike to cross over and run off the road.
Excellent points guys!
ORIGINAL: wallyn
Yup, Chad Nailed it!
This guy is NOT countersteering. He is driving like a car. Note the handlebars are turning into the turn not straight ahead or left as they should be in the case of countersteering.
Note racers hang off the side of their bike to increase the inside weight so they do not need to lean the bike over as far in a high speed turn. For those of you going HUH! ... If the rider stayed in the center of the bike during a high speed turn the required lean angle fora given speed is greater than the required lean angle if the mass of the rider is shifted toward the inside of a turn for the same speed. That is why they try to drag a knee, They are trying to get the smallest radius turn without over leaning and unloading the tires.
ORIGINAL: chadriggs
This discussion can be put to rest by studying this picture for about 3 seconds. This guy is leaning like a champ but his bike ain't turnin'. The missing component? Countersteer.
ORIGINAL: cray49a
This guy is NOT countersteering. He is driving like a car. Note the handlebars are turning into the turn not straight ahead or left as they should be in the case of countersteering.
Note racers hang off the side of their bike to increase the inside weight so they do not need to lean the bike over as far in a high speed turn. For those of you going HUH! ... If the rider stayed in the center of the bike during a high speed turn the required lean angle fora given speed is greater than the required lean angle if the mass of the rider is shifted toward the inside of a turn for the same speed. That is why they try to drag a knee, They are trying to get the smallest radius turn without over leaning and unloading the tires.
In addition to braking in the curve, the rider in the pic is NOT countersteering, and probably rolled off the throttle which is why he has lost much of his ground clearance. Failure to negotiate a curve is probably the number one reason for most bike accidents. Most of the time it's single vehicle involved.Now maybe in some instances there was a dog or deer the rider had to swerve around, but most of the time the rider just ran off the road. And one of the reasons this happens is that if a rider does not understand and practice countersteering in corners, then when the defecation engages the ventillation, like Wallyn said, they revert back to driving a car, and try and turn the handbars into the turn like they turn the steering wheel to make the front wheels turn tighter. All this does is cause them to cross over into the incoming lane and run right off the road.
The common (not hard and fast) scenario is that a:
1. Rider enters a turn faster than he feels comfortable with.
2. Rolls off the throttle (we can do this in a car). This causes the bike to become unstable.
3. Applys brakes while the bike is leaned over in corner. (we can do this in a car) This causes the bike to want to stand up and go straight.
4. Turns the bars INTO the turn thinking he will turn tighter (like turning the wheel in a car). This causes the bike to cross over and run off the road.
Excellent points guys!