Pay them back?? Never happen.................

Last I heard our national debt to China was right at a Trillion Dollars, and going up a couple Billion Dollars each day... And if the new Health Care Bill goes through our debt to China will probably double...

Hard for our gooberment to say or do anything 'negative' towards their banker (China)..

 

It is what it is! That said, so long as the fellas down the block charge 1/3 as much as the dealership, I'll be giving my business to 3rd party mechanics

 

You have some interesting observations for a person that defends the management side of the labor issue. You also don't want to blame the politician or the lobbyists. Are we supposed to assume the world has suddenly changed. For thousands of years the people in power have made the rules (remember history re: land owners and serfs) and nothing has changed. Your right in that it would be hard to fix the problems. If you leave the barn door open and the horse gets out it may be too late. You can't let the foreigners in and spoil us with cheap labor prices and fix it overnight .... we are in trouble until we can compete and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Especially with our youth.

As for big business being forced to move plants to maintain profitability that is pure crap. Automakers were doing well before the Japanese had any foothold. They moved plants to Canada because their labor was a couple bucks cheaper and they didn't have to provide health care. Check the time frame ... no foreign pressure just politicians, lobbyists (big business) doing what they do best. Going where labor (just a commodity to them) is the cheapest. You'll all be happy when the working class is making survival wages with no frills. North America has a situation where a very small percentage of the people have 90% of the wealth. This is a young country and it will be proven in the not too distant future that this system don't work as it is. Reminds me of an old Pink Floyd song. Protect your wealth, our kids are coming to get it soon.

Methinks someone should have listened to organized labor long ago .. Someone else here posted this also .... labor fought Nafta and Global economy (to no avail) because they had the foresight to see where this was going.

 

Midnight - Because every one would have a good paying job. The quality would flow out of the competition for sales and the price. Protectionism works, always did and always will.

The textile industry could gain back the multiple 10k of jobs they lost. Manufacturing and all others. When people have jobs they buy cars, houses etc. and the dollar accelerates many times.

The current rate of 10% unemployed. Get used to it. It will be the new norm like 5% used to be considered full employment. With cap and trade plus the passing of the health care bill we will be looking at 20%. Write this prediction down and put it on the refrig then look at it in three years. See if it happens.

 

for those of you who stand up for harley products. and are saying that it is because of all of us buying leather at walmart is what made them have to start haveing stuff made in china. i think that is a load of crap. all i have to see to know that is crap is go in to a stealership and look at a 700 dollor jacket that dosnt even have armor in it. when i spend 700 on a name brand sport bike jacket is has armor and all kinds of technology in it. the hd crap is just that. high priced crap

 

US Dollar denominated instruments held by;
China - $780 billion
Japan - $724 billion
UK - $220 billion
Caribbean banks - $193 billion
Oil Exporters - $189 billion
Brazil - $138 billion
Russia - $118 billion

 

I'll stop reading right there (for now) and point out that being opposed to greedy unions destroying American industries does *not* put me on "the management side of the labor issue" to anyone except for greedy union workers who can only see things as black and white - give in to our greed, or we'll shut you down.

I am on the side of Americans, our society, our country, our way of life - whether those Americans are union workers who are too foolish to see their "or we'll shut you down" threats put them out of a job, a manager, or a non-union blue collar worker, or the consumer (who also happens to be a union worker, a non-union worker, or a manager) who loses out in the end.

How does who you *want* to blame have an impact on reality?

Facts are readily available. You need not assume anything.


And the people beneath them have given them and allowed them that power. There is nothing our politicians do that we have not allowed them to do and supported them in doing. Many times, that support comes in the form of thousands, perhaps millions, of people simply doing nothing.

True. It's the damn foreigners who have ruined this country. I suggest the first part of fixing the problem would be to rid the country of them. We could start it as a voluntary program - anyone here whose family began in England should move back there ASAP!

Oh... sorry, that was a long time ago. It's actually the Europeans! All those damn Poles, Italians, Hungarians....

Sorry... that was our problem a generation ago... I got lost - which immigrants are the problem this week?


Certainly then, you can present some numbers to show how, as an example, GM could maintain all manufacturing within the US, sell their product at a price US consumers are willing to pay, and generate a profit.

... or is that just your opinion based on what you *want* to believe?


Were they? No quality issues? People lining up to buy American cars, but then the Japanese auto makers came in a ruined it for them?

Do you recall the quality issues with Japanese manufactured cars when they first hit US shores? They were garbage. They presented no real threat to US automakers. The only appeal they had was that they were small, and not very expensive. US automakers had every opportunity to thoroughly trounce them. Bad management decisions played a key role in that failing to happen. High labor and legacy costs also played a large role. Declining quality while the Japanese quality improved played a large role.

Why did they want to save that money? So the politicians could have it?

[/QUOTE] Check the time frame ... no foreign pressure just politicians, lobbyists (big business) doing what they do best.[/QUOTE]

1970's - lots of issues with management, labor, legacy costs, quality, and declining consumer satisfaction with their products. Nothing to do with politicians.

Yes, labor is a commodity to business.

My dad was born in 1929. There was a guy who would come down the alley in a horse drawn wagon to deliver coal to heat their house. My dad remembered him as a very nice guy with a successful business.

You don't see many people delivering coal to houses today. You don't see many deliveries being made in horse drawn wagons. If you ride through Chicago, you don't see a lot of stables in the city. All the people who shoveled manure off the streets are gone...

Look at all the industries that have disappeared. How many jobs were lost?Where do people work?

I don't know anyone who delivers coal to houses, but I know a guy who works at a nuclear power plant making a nice income. There are people who work at coal powered plants too. Not many wagon makers, but, the auto industry seems to employ a few people...

Things change. People... they either change too, or, they complain about how things aren't like they used to be - and get left behind.

How is that relevant? How are the rest of the people doing? Here's a hint - the "poor" people in the US live like royalty compared to how the people of may countries live. We, all, are a very wealthy nation.

Median middle class income is somewhere around the mid 40's. A dual earner "middle class" household brings in around $95,000. A dual earner "working class" household brings in around $60,000.

Who cares if the top 20 billionaires have $900 billion between them? How does that change your income, my income, or our ability to pay the mortgage?

... and the coolest part of living in this country? You are free to join that very small percentage of the people who have 90% of the wealth.

The current economic situation, business closing, is proof the free market system works. People were spending more money than they had. There were too many businesses competing for the same sized slice of pie. Things are moving to the "proper" level.

Just because something is uncomfortable doesn't mean it isn't working.

Methinks organized labor unions time has come and gone. In keeping with the old saying "You're either part of the solution, or part of the problem", organized labor has clearly settled in firmly among the latter.

 

Check the time frame ... no foreign pressure just politicians, lobbyists (big business) doing what they do best.[/QUOTE]

1970's - lots of issues with management, labor, legacy costs, quality, and declining consumer satisfaction with their products. Nothing to do with politicians.



Yes, labor is a commodity to business.



My dad was born in 1929. There was a guy who would come down the alley in a horse drawn wagon to deliver coal to heat their house. My dad remembered him as a very nice guy with a successful business.

You don't see many people delivering coal to houses today. You don't see many deliveries being made in horse drawn wagons. If you ride through Chicago, you don't see a lot of stables in the city. All the people who shoveled manure off the streets are gone...

Look at all the industries that have disappeared. How many jobs were lost?Where do people work?

I don't know anyone who delivers coal to houses, but I know a guy who works at a nuclear power plant making a nice income. There are people who work at coal powered plants too. Not many wagon makers, but, the auto industry seems to employ a few people...

Things change. People... they either change too, or, they complain about how things aren't like they used to be - and get left behind.



How is that relevant? How are the rest of the people doing? Here's a hint - the "poor" people in the US live like royalty compared to how the people of may countries live. We, all, are a very wealthy nation.

Median middle class income is somewhere around the mid 40's. A dual earner "middle class" household brings in around $95,000. A dual earner "working class" household brings in around $60,000.

Who cares if the top 20 billionaires have $900 billion between them? How does that change your income, my income, or our ability to pay the mortgage?

... and the coolest part of living in this country? You are free to join that very small percentage of the people who have 90% of the wealth.



The current economic situation, business closing, is proof the free market system works. People were spending more money than they had. There were too many businesses competing for the same sized slice of pie. Things are moving to the "proper" level.

Just because something is uncomfortable doesn't mean it isn't working.



Methinks organized labor unions time has come and gone. In keeping with the old saying "You're either part of the solution, or part of the problem", organized labor has clearly settled in firmly among the latter.[/QUOTE]

Very well said.

As Pogo used to say, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

Americans are no longer responsible for anything. We are not the same group that won World War II, when we recognized what had to be done and did it.

Now our problems are someone else's fault: it's the Chinese, it's the politicians [didn't we elect them?], it's this, it's that. We seem trapped in a time tunnel that looks backward, wishing that =Leave It to Beaver= and =Ozzie and Harriet= portrayed reality.

I work for a large company. It does business in 130 countries. It produces nearly all its goods and services with employees from =many= different countries, and they are aimed at global markets. If it insisted on doing everything with American labor, it would cease to exist in three years, driven out of business by its competitors that didn't have such a restriction. The American educational system has become so weak that it cannot supply necessary talent. Most of the people I work with speak four languages fluently.

We better stop bashing foreigners and focus on being competitive with the rest of the world. The key to that is education, hard work and personal responsibility. Yeah, motherhood and apple pie. But if we don't get better at this, it won't be only Harley that goes away.

 

Do away with all of the unions, and companies will be glad to impose longer working hours for less pay and no benefits, all in the name of profit. Personally, I'll go to a union shop whenever possible, won't cross a picket line, and will only go to the Wal Marts of the world as a last resort. As long as there are the few fat cats at the top making what would be a livable wage for many thousands of Americans the struggle must continue. And, I'll do my best to be a part of it.

 

Let's not forget about our 401K plans. It is not just the fat cats on wall street with investments. Many blue collar and white collar workers have ownership in the stock market with their retirement plans at work. Unless you're very generous I expect you want your stocks to go up, that makes (made) you feel more comfortable about the future. If the rise in the value of your funds was because some company, like Harely, started to purchase its parts from overseas to lower its costs, then that was okay...because your personal value went up. It is all invisable to us also, your monthy statment never provides information about the shop that lost business or the 20 people that were let go.

I'm no economist, but when we don't support our own economy and pay the prices for things that support the wages we want to earn, something has to give. It is like the UAW member driving a Toyota to work.