Build a Better Mouse Trap
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Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,290
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Keep the Sound
They are easy to remove now but for how long and you have to remember they all went Cat in 2010. EPA will be gettin into that decatting thing before long!
That is not what this is about, I want to keep my air cooled and I like the sound. Harley needs to keep em air cooled, metrics went water cooled and got the cat but there goes the sound.
No I'm talking something like Harley pulled off in the mid thirty's. They had a killer design that they could sell even in a depression. I know they need to stay innovative and stay on top of design but they need to do more to stay competitive in a tough market.
I buy em anyway cause I know how to decat but a lot of people won't want to have to go to the trouble or the expense. The signature sound is killed with the cat in the headpipe!
Speaking of an investment, the company that gets a patent on a devise that will replace the cat and does not have to be stuck in the tailpipe will rake it in. Harley will sell better if they can keep it air cooled and loud, but all the motorcycle companies spend a lot of money working around the EPA and have the same problems when manufacturing an air cooled. This ain't a Harley problem, they are still a good bike but it seems it would be just as cheap to find a replacement for the cat as the R&D/tooling for a water cooled engine that nobody wants and you still have a tater in the exhaust killing the sound!
Just interested to see if anyone is working on it! CD's ain't paying crap and I would love to find a company that is working on this!
Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 695
Likes: 4
Motorcycles are targeted for one reason. They're easy targets and the money to defend themselves isn't there. Trying to go after the oil companies is career suicide. Those top level oil guys have an almost infinite supply of money to throw at a problem to make it disappear. The worlds too much of a corrupt society to do away with that tanker problem.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,865
Likes: 168
From: Potsdam, NY
It's possible, with the existing technology, and other bike manufactures already do this (Ducati, Suzuki 650, KTM), to design a much cleaner, lighter, more powerful, smoother, longer lasting and more fuel efficient VTwin engine but, it would need to be water cooled, have an even firing order to do help do away with vibration ( no more potato, potato exhause sound ) and will probably have double overhead cams (for better breathing) and a 90 degree V spacing (to eliminate 1st order harmonic balancing vibration - not the HD look). My guess is HD will eventually comprimise, at least on some things, and eventully replace the existing air cooled engines with a water cooler varient that still looks, vibrates and sounds like the original (somethink like a smaller version of the VRod engine). Developing a new engine platform though requires a huge investment in R&D and it does not sound like HD has the money to do this right now.
Last edited by fat_tony; Feb 7, 2010 at 03:46 PM.
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Beg to Differ
Best solution over time is for the necessity of the Cat in the exhaust system being eliminated. I don't want a water cooled Harley anyway and a lot more feel as I do!
I can't believe we can put a little rover on Mars and can't come up with a method of cleaning up the exhaust without putting a CAT in the exhaust on an AIR COOLED engine.
They were meeting the Emissions Standard until 2010 without the Cats in the Exhaust. The co2 standard stayed the same but EPA they added some kind of Oxide, NOX or something that had to be removed. Above my paygrade but someone will come on with the two other elements aside from o2 they had to start removing in 2010.
Would there be some kind of additive that could take out the last two pollutants or something to take that out of the fuel before it went into the combustion chamber? Got to be a better way than trying to take it out with a cat after it has been in the combusion chamber!
The person that figures out how can write their own ticket is all I'm saying!
Last edited by coupe55; Feb 7, 2010 at 03:40 PM. Reason: spell
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,230
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From: Mount Holly, NC
nothing
thing is, there are bigger fish to fry if you're really serious about clean air.
For instance what about the freighters that burn low grade, high sulfur fuel. I read an article from the UK that said 4 of the biggest ocean freighters put out more pollution (mainly sulfur dioxide) in a year than all the cars in the world COMBINED. That was figured on running 10,000 miles a year for each car. And there are about 350,000 ocean freighters. Motorcycles are a minuscule part of the pollution problem. Just more tree hugger BS.
here's an article about the problem and hypocrisy
http://www.cleveland.com/nation/inde...l_on_poll.html
excerpt:
The rules are designed to reduce emissions of airborne contaminants blamed for smog, acid rain, respiratory ailments and possibly cancer. Large ships are leading producers of nitrogen and sulfur oxides and tiny contaminated particles that foul the air near ports and coastlines and hundreds of miles inland, the EPA says.
Frank O'Donnell, president of Clean Air Watch, a Washington-based advocacy group, said he was disappointed that Obey and Rep. Jim Oberstar, a Minnesota Democrat and chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, had sided with the shippers in talks with the Obama administration.
"They deservedly have a stellar record and reputation on environmental issues, but departed in this case to work essentially behind closed doors for a special interest fix for a favored industry," he said.
thing is, there are bigger fish to fry if you're really serious about clean air.
For instance what about the freighters that burn low grade, high sulfur fuel. I read an article from the UK that said 4 of the biggest ocean freighters put out more pollution (mainly sulfur dioxide) in a year than all the cars in the world COMBINED. That was figured on running 10,000 miles a year for each car. And there are about 350,000 ocean freighters. Motorcycles are a minuscule part of the pollution problem. Just more tree hugger BS.
here's an article about the problem and hypocrisy
http://www.cleveland.com/nation/inde...l_on_poll.html
excerpt:
The rules are designed to reduce emissions of airborne contaminants blamed for smog, acid rain, respiratory ailments and possibly cancer. Large ships are leading producers of nitrogen and sulfur oxides and tiny contaminated particles that foul the air near ports and coastlines and hundreds of miles inland, the EPA says.
Frank O'Donnell, president of Clean Air Watch, a Washington-based advocacy group, said he was disappointed that Obey and Rep. Jim Oberstar, a Minnesota Democrat and chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, had sided with the shippers in talks with the Obama administration.
"They deservedly have a stellar record and reputation on environmental issues, but departed in this case to work essentially behind closed doors for a special interest fix for a favored industry," he said.
i cant control what shippers do. i can try but it never works out. i can control myself so thats what i do. i'm certainly not going to get caught up in a pollution-race because joe blow pollutes and therefore i should match or exceed his output in order to get my share of pollution into the air.
i like clean air and peace/quiet. a lot of people say they do too but in all honesty they dont its just a nice thing to say in front of company.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,476
Likes: 5
From: Republic of Texas
Lot of discussion of what HD will or won't do. The v-rod has not been a success, so water cooled engines that don't sound classical aren't going to happen. The v-rod is a niche bike. I refuse to second guess or arm chair quarterback a company that has survived this long and offers a mix of models to appeal to most. No company is going to mass produce something that will not sell for long. The cat is here to stay till you remove it. Eventually you may have to replace it to pass motor vehicle inspection but otherwise those that hate them will remove them.
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Bad Timing
yeah i'm not really interested in the politics of it. i'm more interested in the personal-responsibility aspect.
i cant control what shippers do. i can try but it never works out. i can control myself so thats what i do. i'm certainly not going to get caught up in a pollution-race because joe blow pollutes and therefore i should match or exceed his output in order to get my share of pollution into the air.
i like clean air and peace/quiet. a lot of people say they do too but in all honesty they dont its just a nice thing to say in front of company.
i cant control what shippers do. i can try but it never works out. i can control myself so thats what i do. i'm certainly not going to get caught up in a pollution-race because joe blow pollutes and therefore i should match or exceed his output in order to get my share of pollution into the air.
i like clean air and peace/quiet. a lot of people say they do too but in all honesty they dont its just a nice thing to say in front of company.
EPA could not have picked a worse time to set those new 2010 Emission standards on motorcycles. They catch Harley right in the middle of the worst economic downturn since 1929 and pull this stuff. They have backed off Coal because coal produces over 50% of our power, 90% in some states. With the economy in such dire straights they dont want to completely wipe out it out by breaking bad with coal right now. Plus the fact without coal they would have to write their regulations by the light of a kerosene lamp or candle.
They could have curtailed or rescinded the 2010 emission standards on motorcycles until the economy picked up. They put a lot of Harley manufacturing jobs in jeopardy, if they can do it for coal they can do it for the motorcycle industry. Coal dumps more stuff into the air than Harleys do!
Back to the original thread topic, since EPA is determined to make it tougher on my Harleys I am hoping someone comes up with a way of getting around them without the use of the CATS.
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Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,865
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From: Potsdam, NY
There are only enough oil reserves on this planet to supply world demand for the next Ź20 years, and it takes several billion years of forest decomposing to make more oil. So HD will have to switch to making electric or hydrogen powered bikes if they hope to stay in business beyond the next two decades. So if we wait long enough the Cat Converter issue won't matter 
Last edited by fat_tony; Feb 7, 2010 at 04:39 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,128
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From: florida swamp
yeah i'm not really interested in the politics of it. i'm more interested in the personal-responsibility aspect.
i cant control what shippers do. i can try but it never works out. i can control myself so thats what i do. i'm certainly not going to get caught up in a pollution-race because joe blow pollutes and therefore i should match or exceed his output in order to get my share of pollution into the air.
i like clean air and peace/quiet. a lot of people say they do too but in all honesty they dont its just a nice thing to say in front of company.
i cant control what shippers do. i can try but it never works out. i can control myself so thats what i do. i'm certainly not going to get caught up in a pollution-race because joe blow pollutes and therefore i should match or exceed his output in order to get my share of pollution into the air.
i like clean air and peace/quiet. a lot of people say they do too but in all honesty they dont its just a nice thing to say in front of company.
"hey, it's not my problem" attitude. Problem is, we all breath the same air.
Pollution race? never heard that one before.
I really don't think too many people like to breath polluted air or listen too a lot of racket.
I'm just sick of the hypocrisy of these "save the planet" blowhards.
Last edited by carpetride; Feb 7, 2010 at 04:44 PM.