Wanna sell it!

 

I was afraid when I started the thread it could not be contained to the original topic.

The question still remains, why don't the motorcycle industry as a whole work together to find a way of meeting the stringent 2010 EPA Emissions standard, without the use of a Catalytic Converter.

The EPA set the Standard but in the standard stated that they did not expect to see the universal use of the Catalytic Converter. In other words the motorcycle companies are free to use another method of meeting the new emission standards. http://www.epa.gov/OTAQ/regs/roadbike/420f03046.pdf


I believe they need to start thinking out of the box and try to find another way of meeting the emission standard without sticking an obstruction in the exhaust system! They all shared electric start when it was developed, as the auto industry did power steering and power breaks.

If they pooled their recources and talent it looks to me like another break through in pollution control may be possible. Something other than the CAT should be possible for an Air Cooled Engine and Harley because of their association with that Iconic Sound needs to eliminate the CAT even if they eventually water cool on account of the heat problems with the CAT.

 

Why do people think that a water cooled engine produces less heat than an air cooled engine? They produce the same amount of heat, the difference is in how heat is removed from the engine and teh ability to control operating temperature.
A catalytic converter works the same for either and has nothing to do with the cooling system.

I'd love to have an engine that produced huge horsepower and torque, uses no fuel, produces no emmissions and makes no noise. I hope they give them away for free. It ain't gonna happen.

Years ago I read an article about using nuclear power in motor vehicles. The study showed that a reactor about the size of a toaster could power an average automobile. Refueling would be required every few decades. (It never mentioned a catalytic converter) I want an AtomGlide.

 

When people jump in at the end of a thread and post!

You ain't been keeping up, that puppy was whipped way back in the thread.

Not a water cooled, Air cooled issue, it's about a Catalytic Converter in the exhaust system killing the power and just as important the sound!

And the need for Harley in particular but the whole motorcyle industry in general coming up with a way of meeting the new 2010 emissions Standards by some other method than a CAT in the Exhaust!

 

BTW; Why not get the auto companies working on it as well.

 

The cat is not the entire problem.... you get extremely hot ignition temperatures from the mandated 'improvement' in more complete fuel combustion....and to do so with an air cooled engine without running extremely high cylinder wall and head temps (from the lean FA mixture) is not easily accomplished. Water cooling allows the rapid transport of that heat energy via a radiator. Passive heat energy transport via cooling fins is not as efficient, and when ambient air temps and lack of air movement (such as being stopped in traffic on a hot day) result in less temperature gradient between the engine and cooling air, the only thing that can happen is a very rapid increase to higher engine temperatures.

Will a new stock Harley have the longevity of older Harleys? I don't know, but with the entire line now running lean and cat equipped, and with a sufficient number of bikes left relatively stock, I guess we'll find out soon enough. So far the discussion is based on anecdotal evidence...but that doesn't necessarily mean the evidence is incorrect. It's especially worrisome for those (like myself) who ride their bikes a large number of miles per year, or like to keep a ride for a very long time.

 

That would be great for all the auto companies that have a performance line of cars plus the cost of those things are quite high. I believe the metals in the Cats are rare and expensive.

They actually steal a lot from the cars here because they are so valuable!

Think about how much you could reduce the cost of each vehicle if you cold meet the requirements without a Catalytic Converter and multiply that by millions of cars.

Having said that most of the automobiles do not have much riding on sales on account of how they sound! A devise that kills power and the signature sound of a Motor Cycle that is built around that sound especially needs to lose the CAT.

When it was just Cali and CVO bikes we could all get the sound back! The 2010 and beyond Harley's with all of them having CATS will over time kill the signature sound of a Harley Davidson. I changed the slipons on mine and the free flowing mufflers hardly made a difference.

I ain't looking necessarily for loud, but this Mr. Rogers imitation don't even sound close to the pre 06 Harley's and it is a 103 Cu. In. I had to dump the cat to get the sound back!

 

Yea, since 07 the cams are designed to hold the lean fuel in for a more complete burn. The bikes were hot before they hung a cat on them!

Extended engine life will be a concern over time, espeially since from 2010 on when they all will have the CATS.

The sound will IMO still be a big factor on if as many people even buy them.

20 Harley's coming down the road that sound like metric's does not a good commercial make!

A metric can look like a Harley and be water cooled with a Cat in the exhaust but it ain't a Harley, it's sale ain't effected by that signature sound!

All things considered if they all sound the same a lot of people will just buy the metric and Harley can't afford that!

 

Yup, nothing sounds quite like a Harley...and that's coming from a guy that owns metrics and a Super Glide. That's part of the reason my cats are going (along with the engine heat problem)...putting on a pair of XiED's too....just lucky my cats are in the mufflers and not the header.

 

Mine was a little tougher but I am a welder, I went after the cat in the headpipe, got the SE Slipons and the XIED's also. I don't want to do too much under warranty, we can get those XIED's out in about 5 if we have to.

I will do the woods cam and an aftermarket makes a replacement pipe now! Will do the TTS Tune and yep I have got that puppy cooled down and sounding a lot better.

I got the bagger so I went with a 10 row jagg oil cooler with the fan and the Lenale Head fan, for those hot summer days stuck in traffic. Went with a little colder plug also.

We would have a tough time without our aftermarket people, just hoping 2010 on EPA don't start going after our aftermarket exhaust manufacturers.

Most people on here will know what to do for a few years as long as they have the option! We lose those exhaust people and the option gets tougher, especially if they start sticking the cats in all the headpipes, not just the touring models!

We would not have to do the exhaust mods if the cat was not in there! Plus everybody that buys one may not be as tech savy as the people that hang here.

We all mod them, hardly anybody leaves a Harley stock but if we lost the option it's going to hurt the Harley buyer and Harley.

If they could come up with some other way other than the CATS in the exhaust to meet the 2010 emissions standards, we could rest assured our aftermarket exhaust people will be out there to help us out.

I can't believe there is no other way to do it and just because it works for the automobile industry don't mean the things are good for the motorcycle industry. Especially an industry that would like to stay Air Cooled. I notice the big Yamaha is air cooled and scary close to Harley looking and they run it along side their water cooled bikes. They know that some Harley purist won't go water cooled and hang that little radiator on there!

Necessity is the mother of invention!

If Harley can still sell enough bikes without the signature Harley sound it's a non issue!