what else won't the MOCO fix??
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Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,485
Likes: 232
From: Ohio
Again I'll state the bike has never been opened. Service has been performed. My gripe is why they made a part that can not be serviced. This would have been a 6 hour repair to the evo or twin cam 88. Now it is a 20 hour repair and HD won't do it! That is bad service. That is all I am saying. If it was an unusual problem, the aftermarket would not be changing the design when it is repaired. Never mind. I thought some of you might be interested. I guess not.
Road Warrior
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,640
Likes: 817
Here is a photo showing the end of the tapered connecting rod the OP is discussing.
http://www.baggersmag.com/tech/0805_.../photo_18.html
As you can see, the area of the connecting rod and the bushing where the piston wrist pin goes thru is tapered, and a replacement bushing cannot be pressed into place. There is also not an oil hole on top of this smaller top surface of the rod.
I believe the complaint here is that rather than a fix by pulling the head and jug and inserting a $5 replacement bushing, then reaming it, the bottom case has to be split and a new $800 crankshaft assy replaced instead.
http://www.baggersmag.com/tech/0805_.../photo_18.html
As you can see, the area of the connecting rod and the bushing where the piston wrist pin goes thru is tapered, and a replacement bushing cannot be pressed into place. There is also not an oil hole on top of this smaller top surface of the rod.
I believe the complaint here is that rather than a fix by pulling the head and jug and inserting a $5 replacement bushing, then reaming it, the bottom case has to be split and a new $800 crankshaft assy replaced instead.
Banned
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,719
Likes: 1
I understand what you are saying...
Dunno why the other 'mechanics' can't follow it. Yeh, I may be a shade tree, but I've also had machinist and mechanical design training. The OP is only trying to fore warn others of a possible impending disaster. IF you happen to keep your bike beyond mfg warranty instead of trading it in before the seat is broken in well, you might let what he is saying soak in a bit.
Instead of dissin the guy, why not try to understand his anguish? You can bet your ***, if you walk into any harley dealer and they stand to make a bundle on a major crank overhaul rather than a simple wrist pin replacement they'd be all too happy to rape his bank account...
OhioFLH, I believe I have seen articles about this, and I'm fairly sure there are some good crank guys who are machining better setups. Can't state anyone in particular, as I kinda skimmed over what I read since it didn't pertain to me. Dark Horse seems a good start, I've read some pretty good raves about them also...
After having looked at what jamesw posted, I can see where some goofy designer may have thought they could save a few bucks on that design. Looks like they are relying on the tapered top of the rod/bushing to allow oil into the bushing rather than an oil hole. It seems to me that it is indeed a poor design, as it could tend to get more oil to the outer edges of the bushing, and very likely be much less oil in the center of the bore. That's my take on what I saw, at a glance anyway...
The new setup could be changed out, if you wanted to fab up yer own tapered bushing remover/installer. I'm sure another bushing could be sized to fit. Not that difficult to cut a bronze bushing at that angle and clean it up in place. Deal is, why repair a poor design when you have a great opportunity to improve it?
One last thing...
OhioFLH, I'd like to thank you for this post. If I ever consider a newer bike, I'll certainly keep this in mind!
Dunno why the other 'mechanics' can't follow it. Yeh, I may be a shade tree, but I've also had machinist and mechanical design training. The OP is only trying to fore warn others of a possible impending disaster. IF you happen to keep your bike beyond mfg warranty instead of trading it in before the seat is broken in well, you might let what he is saying soak in a bit.
Instead of dissin the guy, why not try to understand his anguish? You can bet your ***, if you walk into any harley dealer and they stand to make a bundle on a major crank overhaul rather than a simple wrist pin replacement they'd be all too happy to rape his bank account...
OhioFLH, I believe I have seen articles about this, and I'm fairly sure there are some good crank guys who are machining better setups. Can't state anyone in particular, as I kinda skimmed over what I read since it didn't pertain to me. Dark Horse seems a good start, I've read some pretty good raves about them also...
After having looked at what jamesw posted, I can see where some goofy designer may have thought they could save a few bucks on that design. Looks like they are relying on the tapered top of the rod/bushing to allow oil into the bushing rather than an oil hole. It seems to me that it is indeed a poor design, as it could tend to get more oil to the outer edges of the bushing, and very likely be much less oil in the center of the bore. That's my take on what I saw, at a glance anyway...
The new setup could be changed out, if you wanted to fab up yer own tapered bushing remover/installer. I'm sure another bushing could be sized to fit. Not that difficult to cut a bronze bushing at that angle and clean it up in place. Deal is, why repair a poor design when you have a great opportunity to improve it?
One last thing...
OhioFLH, I'd like to thank you for this post. If I ever consider a newer bike, I'll certainly keep this in mind!
Last edited by CroK; May 26, 2010 at 02:59 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,597
Likes: 0
From: South Jersey
After seeing the picture of those rod ends I can see why they might spin. Odd design. Harley never had a problem (that I know of) with their old rod bearings spinning, why change the design?!?!? I think I would be upgrading those rods to conventional ones if possible. If this happened to me, I TOO would be feeling like I am riding a ticking time bomb until it happens again. When I bought my 99 RK it had 38K on it. I bought the 4 year warranty for an additional $1,000 just for this possibility. Engines and transmissions have gotten expensive. I got my tensioners and chains swapped out for Andrews cams and a gear drive set-up at the first sign of noise from the chaincase. Out of pocket expense for that little upgrade cost me a whopping $172 dollars (I had a buddy who was a service manager at a dealer). That paid for the warranty in my book!!
I guess some guys are jumping on the OP just because it's the first of this problem posted here. The 96 motor is still new, With that rod design there may be many more spun bearing threads to come.
I guess some guys are jumping on the OP just because it's the first of this problem posted here. The 96 motor is still new, With that rod design there may be many more spun bearing threads to come.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 13,402
Likes: 941
From: Illinois
I get it. When it was shown that tappered was the meaning of chopped off, I don't like the set up either. But, I have three bikes with the 96" motor. The first thing I do is add a 185 degree oil cooler. The next step is to get the proper air/fuel ration down to 14:1 instead of the lean 16:1. This makes the HD motor run much cooler. Cooler will result in longer life of the motor.
I wonder if the spun bearing was in the rear cylinder which runs much hotter.
I wonder if the spun bearing was in the rear cylinder which runs much hotter.
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Harley went to this design to save weight in the upper end of the rod. Looks like they saved too much! This is just another example of Harley's getting less and less rebuildable. If this was my bike, I would not simply replace the pin bushing, but also replace the rod bearings and maybe the main bearings too. The force of the knocking with a bad pin bushing could easily damage the rod bearings. In fact, I would be surprised if it didn't do some damage.I think you are in for a crank rebuild no matter what.
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Road Captain
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 735
Likes: 5
From: Bluffton,SC
Not sure why you could not change the bushing. It's not a tapered on it's fly cut at the top (unsure why?). You can still change the bushing by honing the old one out. Than heat the rod end up, in a rod forge, than push the new one in. That's how you do it on pressed rod and piston assembly you heat the rod and than fit the piston pin. Will say that it sure looks like some one over engineered that rod assembly. They need to leave it well enough alone. But I still think you can find a machine shop that can fix it. I would take to a machine shop. Let them look at it see if they can fix. All they have to do is cross referance the bushing OD and they can hone one to fit.
Last edited by rickb; May 26, 2010 at 08:18 PM.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,951
Likes: 6
From: Kingman, AZ
Again I'll state the bike has never been opened. Service has been performed. My gripe is why they made a part that can not be serviced. This would have been a 6 hour repair to the evo or twin cam 88. Now it is a 20 hour repair and HD won't do it! That is bad service. That is all I am saying. If it was an unusual problem, the aftermarket would not be changing the design when it is repaired. Never mind. I thought some of you might be interested. I guess not.
It is the first I've read of this which makes me question how well the previous owner did the service or how hard he was on the scoot. Could be however it was just a bad one off the assembly line? Kind of like Sickbagger and his off kilter SE255 cams.
I guess I am not sure if it is bad design or bad execution of production. If a part like that lasted 200K miles in 99.9% of the motors then it would be a good design.
I can certainly understand your pain and frustration however that yours failed prematurely and the fix is not simple. A double whammy.