spark plug
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 4,359
Likes: 1,219
From: Dubuque, IA
well, that was a Delphi guy that knows his ion sense better than you or anyone else here. The ion sense was designed to work with a wide Nothing special about the stock champion plugs but run em if ya want. The NGKs work just as well if not better. Quit telling people they don't. Jeezus
i haven't seen a knock event yet and I've tried making it knock.
i haven't seen a knock event yet and I've tried making it knock.
Last edited by 60Gunner; Oct 1, 2020 at 01:00 PM.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 4,359
Likes: 1,219
From: Dubuque, IA
I think this Delphi engineer knows his own ion sense circuit better than anyone here. It would appear some of you think otherwise or are just flat out making **** up to support your view on using the stock plugs and stock everything else most likely. But as far as the stock champions, it's not really about the cost so much as just being champions. But if others run them and/or like them that's their business. Just tired of hearing this same old bs rumor every time someone mentions NGKs.
Originally Posted by glbsportster
Interesting reading from a Delphi Engineer...
Regarding the OEM Champion plugs the resistive element that they use is not a resistor; it is a semiconductor suppression element. The effective resistance is specified to be 6k-15k. Furthermore, there is a fairly strong negative temperature coefficient, so the resistance decreases at normal operating temperature. In my experience, I have typically seen it in the range of about 2k-5k when the engine is running.
Note: Because the suppression element is not a resistor, it cannot be reliably measured with a conventional ohmmeter. The resistance of the element must be measured in an apparatus that provides 1000V pulses (per conversation with a Federal Mogul engineer).
You made it clear that this is all the information you wanted. However, if you want some insight into the ion sense system and related trouble codes, you may read on.
With regards to ion sensing, there is absolutely nothing magic about the Champion suppression element. Any trouble codes that you encounter have nothing to do with the resistance of the spark plug. Our circuit is designed so that we can tolerate a very wide range of resistances. We can easily operate with spark plug resistances from zero to 20k.
The ion current that we measure is in the range of 0-50 microamps. To avoid ion sense related trouble codes, you must have perfect continuity from the ignition coil to the spark plug tip. We have trouble codes P1353 and P1356 (front and rear cylinder, respectively) that are detected if we see no ion current under high speed/load conditions (where the ion current should be strongest). These codes will detect an open circuit in the ignition secondary circuit.
Additionally, we have trouble codes P1357 and P1358 (front and rear cylinder, respectively) that are detected if we see excessive noise on the ion signal. The intention of these codes is to detect an intermittent terminal.
Originally Posted by glbsportster
Interesting reading from a Delphi Engineer...
Regarding the OEM Champion plugs the resistive element that they use is not a resistor; it is a semiconductor suppression element. The effective resistance is specified to be 6k-15k. Furthermore, there is a fairly strong negative temperature coefficient, so the resistance decreases at normal operating temperature. In my experience, I have typically seen it in the range of about 2k-5k when the engine is running.
Note: Because the suppression element is not a resistor, it cannot be reliably measured with a conventional ohmmeter. The resistance of the element must be measured in an apparatus that provides 1000V pulses (per conversation with a Federal Mogul engineer).
You made it clear that this is all the information you wanted. However, if you want some insight into the ion sense system and related trouble codes, you may read on.
With regards to ion sensing, there is absolutely nothing magic about the Champion suppression element. Any trouble codes that you encounter have nothing to do with the resistance of the spark plug. Our circuit is designed so that we can tolerate a very wide range of resistances. We can easily operate with spark plug resistances from zero to 20k.
The ion current that we measure is in the range of 0-50 microamps. To avoid ion sense related trouble codes, you must have perfect continuity from the ignition coil to the spark plug tip. We have trouble codes P1353 and P1356 (front and rear cylinder, respectively) that are detected if we see no ion current under high speed/load conditions (where the ion current should be strongest). These codes will detect an open circuit in the ignition secondary circuit.
Additionally, we have trouble codes P1357 and P1358 (front and rear cylinder, respectively) that are detected if we see excessive noise on the ion signal. The intention of these codes is to detect an intermittent terminal.
Last edited by 60Gunner; Oct 1, 2020 at 02:22 PM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 21,176
Likes: 12,748
From: South Carolina
No, it is a post made by you, saying you talked to some guy...
I just pointed out that you seem to think that your word is the final say on a subject, that`s all.
I just pointed out that you seem to think that your word is the final say on a subject, that`s all.
Last edited by Dan89FLSTC; Oct 1, 2020 at 04:52 PM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,071
Likes: 1,006
there are diff sense circuits and diff engine parameters. these must be matched up in order to collect data.
high resistance within parameters of design offer little to no detrimental effects to the ignition.
i would say spark plugs are lesser of an evil because if the mix is correctly lit off, the ion sense will work. all ion sense is a parallel voltage that is sent through the flame kernel which is measured and used by the ecu. where you get into trouble is with the coil, why????
well some coils form a low pass filter which will not allow this data to pass through.
high resistance within parameters of design offer little to no detrimental effects to the ignition.
i would say spark plugs are lesser of an evil because if the mix is correctly lit off, the ion sense will work. all ion sense is a parallel voltage that is sent through the flame kernel which is measured and used by the ecu. where you get into trouble is with the coil, why????
well some coils form a low pass filter which will not allow this data to pass through.
Road Master
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,105
Likes: 705
From: Ramseur NC
well, that was a Delphi guy that knows his ion sense better than you or anyone else here. The ion sense was designed to work with a wide Nothing special about the stock champion plugs but run em if ya want. The NGKs work just as well if not better. Quit telling people they don't. Jeezus
i haven't seen a knock event yet and I've tried making it knock.
i haven't seen a knock event yet and I've tried making it knock.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 21,176
Likes: 12,748
From: South Carolina
As a trained (and FAA certified) aircraft and powerplant mechanic for over 40 years, and over 50 years working on simple stuff like cars and motorcycles, I have never been advised to avoid any brand of spark plug by anyone, except of course reading stories on the internet.
Last edited by Dan89FLSTC; Oct 2, 2020 at 10:12 AM.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 10,809
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From: OH
[QUOTE=Dan89FLSTC;
As a trained (and FAA certified) aircraft and powerplant mechanic for over 40 years, .[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of a tired joke from back in the late `70s
"If Harley Davidson made an airplane, would you fly on it? "
As a trained (and FAA certified) aircraft and powerplant mechanic for over 40 years, .[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of a tired joke from back in the late `70s
"If Harley Davidson made an airplane, would you fly on it? "
Thread Starter
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