SERT question(s)
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Ultimate HDF Member
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From: Po-Dunk Looziana
SERT question(s)
Ok, what would happen if I took the AFR table on the map for my bike(179PZ005) and changed all the 14.6 numbers to 14.2 THEN maxed out the CLB tables to 798mV's? Would my overall AFR equate to something like 13.7-13.8:1 AFR? I'd leave the rest of the map alone and just change the aforementioned.
Enlighten me please.
Enlighten me please.
Club Member
Joined: Feb 2007
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RE: SERT question(s)
I may be wrong, but my understanding is that the CLB table only works when in closed loop. To be in closed loop the AFR table must be set to 14.6 as that is the switch to tell it to run in closed loop.
I thought you were running the tmax. Does it not perform?
I thought you were running the tmax. Does it not perform?
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Ultimate HDF Member
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From: Po-Dunk Looziana
RE: SERT question(s)
Hey Steve,
Thanks for the reply.I was playing with the map last night very briefly and my observation between 2 maps of interest regarding my bike are my older map 159PZ004 and the newer map 179PZ005. It seems that the AFR was lowered in a certain kPA/RPM range in the newer map to 14.0 from 14.6 of the older map but yet both VE tables stayed the same regarding the 2 maps. I do understand that this must have taken the EFI out of closed loop during this time, but I was wondering why HD did this and if going to 14.0 was feasible, why not shoot for 13.8:1 throughout the cruise range overall? The timings are DRASTICALLY different between these 2 maps(RETARDED in the latest map),perhaps to combat PING, but yet the VE tables are mirror images of each other. I'd like an explanation for this please.
I understand the 2 concepts are different between the TMax and the SERT, but why can't you richen up the AFR to 13.8:1, gain a little power, cool the cylinders down a bit, by using the SERT and manipulating the AFR table alone?
Thanks for the reply.I was playing with the map last night very briefly and my observation between 2 maps of interest regarding my bike are my older map 159PZ004 and the newer map 179PZ005. It seems that the AFR was lowered in a certain kPA/RPM range in the newer map to 14.0 from 14.6 of the older map but yet both VE tables stayed the same regarding the 2 maps. I do understand that this must have taken the EFI out of closed loop during this time, but I was wondering why HD did this and if going to 14.0 was feasible, why not shoot for 13.8:1 throughout the cruise range overall? The timings are DRASTICALLY different between these 2 maps(RETARDED in the latest map),perhaps to combat PING, but yet the VE tables are mirror images of each other. I'd like an explanation for this please.
I understand the 2 concepts are different between the TMax and the SERT, but why can't you richen up the AFR to 13.8:1, gain a little power, cool the cylinders down a bit, by using the SERT and manipulating the AFR table alone?
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RE: SERT question(s)
ORIGINAL: UltraKla$$ic
I understand the 2 concepts are different between the TMax and the SERT, but why can't you richen up the AFR to 13.8:1, gain a little power, cool the cylinders down a bit, by using the SERT and manipulating the AFR table alone?
I understand the 2 concepts are different between the TMax and the SERT, but why can't you richen up the AFR to 13.8:1, gain a little power, cool the cylinders down a bit, by using the SERT and manipulating the AFR table alone?
Advanced
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: pa
RE: SERT question(s)
Steve, Im going to have my bike dyno'd in 2 weeks with the SERT (08 RG). Should I then just have them max out the voltage in the CLB tables to achieve 14.2 AFR (for cooler cruise and idle, acknowledging a slight decrease in mileage, while in closed loop). I've heard this mentioned in some other posts, but value your opinion. Also, anything else I should question the tuner about, keeping in mind my goal is not peak horsepower, but rather to just run cooler and have a smooth torque curve with a good bottom end. Only mods are the SE air cleaner and the fuel moto Rush slip ons. I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
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Joined: May 2007
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From: Florida
RE: SERT question(s)
It's very important to get a good long sample time in the 2-5-7-10-15% Throttle position by doing a step test with the winPEP 7 software. This test wil allow us to sample for 30 to 40 seconds and the afr sensor will have a better shot giving you a acurrate reading. Face it when your doing 60~80mph cruising down the hi-way your at 8~10% throttle so have your tuner spend thetime there as needed.
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From: Po-Dunk Looziana
RE: SERT question(s)
I know there is alot more to SERT tuning than what I'm asking but:
1. what are the repercussions, besides a decrease in gas mileage, for taking the AFR down to 13.8:1 like in the map pic posted in the attachmentand changing nothing else within the map besides maxing the CLB tables in both Front and Rear cylinders to 798mV?
2. will thishave a secondary effectexhibited by an increasein performanceas well as cool the cylinders down some?
[IMG]local://upfiles/22226/4B64DD20F5864819B72EAFBA3CE60EDB.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/22226/F64312713FB6419E818E9C9E14A11162.gif[/IMG]
1. what are the repercussions, besides a decrease in gas mileage, for taking the AFR down to 13.8:1 like in the map pic posted in the attachmentand changing nothing else within the map besides maxing the CLB tables in both Front and Rear cylinders to 798mV?
2. will thishave a secondary effectexhibited by an increasein performanceas well as cool the cylinders down some?
[IMG]local://upfiles/22226/4B64DD20F5864819B72EAFBA3CE60EDB.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/22226/F64312713FB6419E818E9C9E14A11162.gif[/IMG]
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Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
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RE: SERT question(s)
Setting you AFR table up thatway in combiation with your CLB will give 14.2 AFR at any time below about 1100 RPM and thatmay bea little lean down there.Thetop left corner of the map may not idle real well. The topright corner of the map is where you can fake in additionalAE for the snap of the throttle off idle. 14.2/closed loophere may cause issues. It depends on what the programmers are not talking about, hard coded in the codeor hidden in tables not exposed. I have never heard if the open loop mode is killed when AE is activated and for what period of thim.
In the mid range, you will not be taking advantage of the ECU ability to find 14.2 in thelow power areas of the map there the real advantage of the HarleyECU is at it's best. You will be totally at the mercy of your tuner to have theVE perfect (and he won't be that good) as the weather, fuel,fuel pressure and filter condition changes all the time. Any one of these can mess with theVE requirementsto hit the target AFR. This will also mess with your overall trim (I forgot the Harley name for it)
Hope this helps
AW
In the mid range, you will not be taking advantage of the ECU ability to find 14.2 in thelow power areas of the map there the real advantage of the HarleyECU is at it's best. You will be totally at the mercy of your tuner to have theVE perfect (and he won't be that good) as the weather, fuel,fuel pressure and filter condition changes all the time. Any one of these can mess with theVE requirementsto hit the target AFR. This will also mess with your overall trim (I forgot the Harley name for it)
Hope this helps
AW
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Advanced
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: Knoxville, TN.
RE: SERT question(s)
One question and one observation -
First, in your original question, you asked about a calibration with a 179 number. Did you mean 176?
If the answer to the first question is 'yes' then on to the observation. If the picture of your bike in your post is accurate, I can't see a 'Y' pipe on your rear cyl. If I'm correct and you changed your headers to duals, then the calibration your looking at may not be offering you the best baseline start point. I was told to look at #67 (176AE104) asa baseline. Even though you don't have 'shorties' you do have true dual pipes. Without the 'Y' a number of events and parameters have changed (like no scavenging, etc.). If you compare the rear cyl. numbers for the two cals mentioned, you'll notice big changes - most noticeable is that the numbers from front to back change very little with duals where there are more marked differences from front to back with stock headers with the 'Y'.
While we don't know how the shorties were baffled (regarding back pressure) in the MoCo example, we do know that the back pressure, flow rates, etc. are more, or closer toequal than with the stock 'Y' header.
Just my penny and a half.
First, in your original question, you asked about a calibration with a 179 number. Did you mean 176?
If the answer to the first question is 'yes' then on to the observation. If the picture of your bike in your post is accurate, I can't see a 'Y' pipe on your rear cyl. If I'm correct and you changed your headers to duals, then the calibration your looking at may not be offering you the best baseline start point. I was told to look at #67 (176AE104) asa baseline. Even though you don't have 'shorties' you do have true dual pipes. Without the 'Y' a number of events and parameters have changed (like no scavenging, etc.). If you compare the rear cyl. numbers for the two cals mentioned, you'll notice big changes - most noticeable is that the numbers from front to back change very little with duals where there are more marked differences from front to back with stock headers with the 'Y'.
While we don't know how the shorties were baffled (regarding back pressure) in the MoCo example, we do know that the back pressure, flow rates, etc. are more, or closer toequal than with the stock 'Y' header.
Just my penny and a half.
Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 739
Likes: 3
RE: SERT question(s)
ORIGINAL: UltraKla$$ic
Ok, what would happen if I took the AFR table on the map for my bike(179PZ005) and changed all the 14.6 numbers to 14.2 THEN maxed out the CLB tables to 798mV's? Would my overall AFR equate to something like 13.7-13.8:1 AFR? I'd leave the rest of the map alone and just change the aforementioned.
Enlighten me please.
Ok, what would happen if I took the AFR table on the map for my bike(179PZ005) and changed all the 14.6 numbers to 14.2 THEN maxed out the CLB tables to 798mV's? Would my overall AFR equate to something like 13.7-13.8:1 AFR? I'd leave the rest of the map alone and just change the aforementioned.
Enlighten me please.
I've read this post several times hoping to understand what your attempting.............[sm=confused06.gif]
IMO, I would think changing all the 14.6 switching values to something different would automatically disable the Closed Loop operation; and hence render the CLB Tables useless. Again, If I'm remembering correctly,any cell value in the AFR Table that's not 14.6 will not operate in Closed Loop.
I would also think that any cells with 14.2 would only yield an AFR of that value if the VE Tables are right on the money.
Hope I'm not missing the boat here! [sm=interesting.gif]
Best Regards!
Ben