Closed Loop Performance
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2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6
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Closed Loop Performance
Gidday New here but have bin lookin for some time seems many of u have so much knowledge! I'am seeking help with what AFM fuel sys to buy the Closed Loop seems 2 b the way 2 go once I get over the loan to pay it off no downloads & stuff (TMax, Innovate LC1-Duo Kit, Twin Tec the lost seems endless) Only have afm S&S slip ons K&N air SE plugs don't intend goin any further after fuel kit ride is FXSTI-07 I would b very grateful if you can offer guidance/opinions experiences with any of these systems Terry Sys seems to have a flaw with the NB02 will not go there just hanging here
reb49 Downunder [/align] [/align]
reb49 Downunder [/align] [/align]
RE: Closed Loop Performance
I cannot comment on the other systems, but will give you my thoughts on what I have found to be true in my experience. Which is of course limited.
I have gone to AN Big-Sucker (Stage 1), and better flowing pipes, and thats all I need.
I have to say that for this set up the SERT has proved an easy and usefull tool. I wanted to keep the O2 sensors and run in both closed and open loop where appropriate. I wanted reasonable mileage so I can tour, and a cooler runing motor so I didn't fry in town. I wanted the motor to run well and get rid of the hesitation at flat throttle low speed conditions. The SERT has allowed me to do all of this, without the aide of a dyno. I'm sure its not perfect, but I don't need that last 1 or2 HP, and its still better that I would ever expect from a carb. The fact that I was able to load a map from the CD which was pretty near to my set up, hook up a laptop and go for a ride while logging engine data to review later, made fine tuneing the engine pretty easy.
I have used a PC III usb, on my 04 train, and that worked fine as well, but it didn't have the O2 sensors. As I understand it at the moment the PC III does not use the O2 sensors and has no capability to diagnose engine management.
The SERT isnt cheap, and you have to spend some time reading the manual, but it works. If you end up buying more than one of the other products the SERT is going to look like a pretty good option.
If you are not going too wild then you will find a map on the CD which will work fine, and lower heat. If you want more you will have to decide if you are willing to tune it yourself, if not its going to come down to who will work with what product in your area.
WB
I have gone to AN Big-Sucker (Stage 1), and better flowing pipes, and thats all I need.
I have to say that for this set up the SERT has proved an easy and usefull tool. I wanted to keep the O2 sensors and run in both closed and open loop where appropriate. I wanted reasonable mileage so I can tour, and a cooler runing motor so I didn't fry in town. I wanted the motor to run well and get rid of the hesitation at flat throttle low speed conditions. The SERT has allowed me to do all of this, without the aide of a dyno. I'm sure its not perfect, but I don't need that last 1 or2 HP, and its still better that I would ever expect from a carb. The fact that I was able to load a map from the CD which was pretty near to my set up, hook up a laptop and go for a ride while logging engine data to review later, made fine tuneing the engine pretty easy.
I have used a PC III usb, on my 04 train, and that worked fine as well, but it didn't have the O2 sensors. As I understand it at the moment the PC III does not use the O2 sensors and has no capability to diagnose engine management.
The SERT isnt cheap, and you have to spend some time reading the manual, but it works. If you end up buying more than one of the other products the SERT is going to look like a pretty good option.
If you are not going too wild then you will find a map on the CD which will work fine, and lower heat. If you want more you will have to decide if you are willing to tune it yourself, if not its going to come down to who will work with what product in your area.
WB
Thread Starter
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2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6
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RE: Closed Loop Performance
WildBill, thanks for your thoughts good option as up here where I live we need to travel 700klm to get to a Dyno so self tune is the only way I wish to go your setup is very close to mine at present decel pops & flat spot in low revs r my issue also although don't get much traffic here with only 20k people quiet little place & only 2 sets of traffic lights but ambient temps reach 40c in summer so heat is an issue [/align]
RE: Closed Loop Performance
Reb
In the UK I couldn't find anyone who would work with the SERT as the narket is pretty much dominated by Asian and European brands so opting for the SERT was a bit of a leap of faith for me. I did find that there were a lot of very patient helpful people on this forum who helped me understand how to achieve what I wanted. I'm no rocker scientist bot I managed it with a little help and advice.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
In the UK I couldn't find anyone who would work with the SERT as the narket is pretty much dominated by Asian and European brands so opting for the SERT was a bit of a leap of faith for me. I did find that there were a lot of very patient helpful people on this forum who helped me understand how to achieve what I wanted. I'm no rocker scientist bot I managed it with a little help and advice.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Novice
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
RE: Closed Loop Performance
In regards to the LC-1 it's my understanding that you can set this up without using a SERT. When you install the LC-1 you will have a software program that comes with the unitcalled Logworks. You connect your laptop to the LC-1 and program your WB02 Sensorthat you use to set the AFR for Idle and Cruise. I'm not really a brain on this but what I think this does is send the ECM the voltages that's require to run the engine a little richer a idle.
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,205
Likes: 0
From: Arizona
RE: Closed Loop Performance
The LC1 kit that Nightrider sells comes either preset to the AFR you ask for, or you can adjust it yourself with the software they include. The AFR once set is where the bike will run when ever the Bike is in closed loop. Of course with the software you have the option to change your desired AFR.
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2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2008
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RE: Closed Loop Performance
Hi you all this info is soogood we don't have access to this info downunder I sometimes wonder if we arn't a bunch of hillbillys over here if the LC1 kit allows programming why do we need to buy afm SERTs etc for tuning what do they do ontop of the LC1 for your info I've bin quote $1400 for a TMax Closed loop from a dealer in AUS when you guys cant get them around $700 as quoted here we are being (taken 4 a ride)
Thanks for the info sofar good ridin [/align]
Thanks for the info sofar good ridin [/align]
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Road Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,205
Likes: 0
From: Arizona
RE: Closed Loop Performance
Reb the Nightrider LC1 kit only works in closed loop mode. Which is like up to 50% throttle and up to 4700 rpm. When you slam the throttle wide open your in open loop where the LC1 would have zero control. Not that the Bike needs help in WOT at 12.5 AFR.
The SERT, Tmax, and Daytona Twin Tech differ in that they allow you access to adjust every aspect of the total map. They also allow you to adjust timing, which the LC1 doesn't.
It really depends on how you want to use the Bike. If you just want a good running Bagger that runs smoother, COOLER, and has better throttle response the LC1's could be the answer to what your looking for. If you want a super tuned engine that will squeeze every little bit of HP and Torque then you want to consider the other tuners. If your doing Cams, Big Bore kits and the likes, the other tuners are more appropriate. But if you just want a good running Bagger that runs cooler and smoother, then the LC1's will do that.
The SERT, Tmax, and Daytona Twin Tech differ in that they allow you access to adjust every aspect of the total map. They also allow you to adjust timing, which the LC1 doesn't.
It really depends on how you want to use the Bike. If you just want a good running Bagger that runs smoother, COOLER, and has better throttle response the LC1's could be the answer to what your looking for. If you want a super tuned engine that will squeeze every little bit of HP and Torque then you want to consider the other tuners. If your doing Cams, Big Bore kits and the likes, the other tuners are more appropriate. But if you just want a good running Bagger that runs cooler and smoother, then the LC1's will do that.
Cruiser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 187
Likes: 2
From: Battle Ground, Washington
RE: Closed Loop Performance
WildBill-
What did you do to get rid of the surging at flat accel/low speeds? I've spent several days with my SERT and a laptop trying to get it right and nothing I've done seems to be helping.
I've downloaded the latest map for my bike and then played with the AFR quite a bit, richening the values in the MAP 30 area down to 13's and 12's. I've tried broadening the range of cells I do this with, and I've experimented with the RPM range I do that in. Seems nothing I do evens that surging out.
I have not tried anything with regard to the spark advance or closed loop tables yet-I'm a bit intimidated going there but maybe that's the answer? Also am noticing that the more I tinker with the AFR, the flatter my throttle response is when I twist it hard at higher speeds. Any thoughts on these things or suggestions as to what I need to be looking at?
Thanks-
What did you do to get rid of the surging at flat accel/low speeds? I've spent several days with my SERT and a laptop trying to get it right and nothing I've done seems to be helping.
I've downloaded the latest map for my bike and then played with the AFR quite a bit, richening the values in the MAP 30 area down to 13's and 12's. I've tried broadening the range of cells I do this with, and I've experimented with the RPM range I do that in. Seems nothing I do evens that surging out.
I have not tried anything with regard to the spark advance or closed loop tables yet-I'm a bit intimidated going there but maybe that's the answer? Also am noticing that the more I tinker with the AFR, the flatter my throttle response is when I twist it hard at higher speeds. Any thoughts on these things or suggestions as to what I need to be looking at?
Thanks-