I have a 07 FLHRS with some engine mods. I.e upgraded to a 103, S&S 570 Cams, Feuling HV oil pump, Cobra 2 into 1 exhaust, etc. I tried a PC III usb and got lots of power but very poor mileage. Took the PC off and did a HD stage 2 103" download. Better mileage and some loss of power. The concern now is heat and detonation when summer comes.

SP Mullen/Nightrider.com offers a adjustable wide band O2 sensor (LC-1 WBO2) that allows a wide range of AFR adjustment. Since I am not racing anymore (old guy now) and just want a little extra power now and then this seems like it might be the answer.

Anybody out there tried these units. If so I'd like to hear your input before I lay out the cash.

pwworth

 

I'm curious myself. I do know Steve is a prince of a guy to work with...

 

I haven't used one. I don't think I'd want to. What they do is, using the appropriate of the two outputs, send the roughly half-volt DC signal (as if it were the stock sensor at ~14.6:1 AFR with straight gasoline) at whichever single AFR (using straight gasoline - I keep saying this because alcohol-mixed gasoline does not have a stoichiometric AFR of 14.7:1, and the stock sensors really only say whether it's lean or rich from stoichiometric burn with whatever suitable fuel you're using, which may well not be 14.7:1; likely isn't with mixed fuel). Let's start over. You can pick any relative single AFR to represent itself as "14.6:1 with straight gasoline" with these units.

Whatever value you pick will be the controlled-to value for all of closed-loop operation. What's more, the Volumetric Efficiency tables in your bike's ECU are populated to match the breathing components its programmed for (stock parts if stock "download", etc.) at various throttle-position/rpm combinations. So it's assuming the VE tables are correct and based upon them and the measured air temperature and pressure right now will decide how much fuel to inject. When the calculated mixture is checked via the O2 sensors (in closed-loop mode), differences between what should've been right and what was needed to achieve it are stored and used as a reference. There are several places values get stored for, and from them, a single value known as the "AFV" (adaptive fuel value) is derived. Now some say it's only used as a starting point when the ECU goes active and others say it's not only used then and thereafter for closed-loop operation, but it's also used while open-loop.

Here's an example. Say your injectors consistently need 10% more open time to get "all clear" readings back from the O2 sensors. That means that, for whatever reason, your ECU programming is incorrect by this amount, and it's factored in via the AFV. Now if this was occurring because you're running 10% ethanol mix, you'd not only need it while closed-loop, but you'd certainly need it while open-loop too! It doesn't stand to reason that it's only used while only closed-loop.

At any rate, when you use these devices, you only get to pick which single "AFR" you control to. Say you want it to be 13.8:1 and all your breathing parts match your VE programming. The difference from 14.6:1 to 13.8:1 is about 106% fuel. So you're adding 6% more fuel all the time. I firmly believe it'll get added while open-loop, too. But it's not needed there. Open-loop programming already dips into the high 12's:1.

The very best thing you can do, and I believe it's cheaper anyway, is to get a TTS tuner and work with the ECU directly, without having to find places to mount parts and run wiring and tap into the power grid somewhere like you'd have to with these.

 

I thought in open loop the ecm does not read the 02 sensors? Not doubting you here, just trying to understand it all. Thanks for your help too.

 

I have installed the LC-1 in both cyclinders of my 07 RK Classic and used these O2 sensors to set a richer idle to keep the bike cooler. The article on the Nightrider web site in regards to the issue of high heat being cause by too lean of a mixture at idle seem to be correct that I could tell on my bike. With that in mind I decided to try the LC-1 and see what it would do

All I can say is that it did cool the bike down and the bike had a quicker response to throttle movement. I could also tell the differance by how much heat was coming off by rear pipe and onto my leg. I used this and the Daytona Twin Tech II and a SERT to adjust the ECM. I don't get too wrapped up in the technical stuff on this becuse of lack of knowledge on the issue. All I used to judge if the bike is running good is my gas mileage (40 MPG @ 80 MPR and 50 MPG@ 70 MPH) and check the spark plugs for a good grey burn. With the LC-1 you can read what the AFR is running at and adjust if need to your desired setting.

I'm sure there are other less expensive way's to achive this but at the time I started to do this the LC-1 was the only thing available. All I can say if you buy anything from Nightrider the support is excellent and Steve always helps out to the max.

 

Personally, I don't want to change my stock ECM settings. I'd rather use something that takes data and modifies the input to the ECM. If I change my mind or something, maybe go to a different fuel manager or back to stock, I don't have to worry about re-doing the ECM. Maybe the TTS can take you back to stock.

I just ordered the PCV with the LCD display for my '09 Dyna. When the wide band 2 with auto tune is released I'll add that. This will give me the ability to construct different maps for different conditions while having the current AFR reading displayed on the LCD. The LCD will become my tach and engine readout device. I'll be able to log data on a smal SD memory card and anaylyse it on the computer and not have to connected to the bike. I really hope it all works as I plan for it to.
I run a PCIII usb on the bike now. It cooled the engine down, but the gas mileage went way down. I'm not a speed demon, so I don't care about having a 1000HP engine and running 120+mph.

The XIED and the variable one are probably low cost items. I just wanted to be able to read engine data, change maps on the fly and not mess up the stock ECM programming. Maybe I'm deluding myself.
That's just me, though.

 

With the TTS you can fetch the complete program that's in the ECU and save it to disk in an encrypted format. You can then burn that image back to that same ECU at any time. Naturally, this works with the stock "download" but it also works at any time no matter what the mapping was at the moment. For this retrieve/reburn function the tuner does not have to be married to the ECU. To burn other data to the ECU you do marry the tuner to the ECU for that capability only.

There is an included program with which you load a special map and ride, taking a datalog. The results of that datalog are then used by the software to generate a better map for you. Doing this cycle a few times dials the bike in up to about 90%, leaving only the most-open throttle area as it was (the O2 sensors cannot reliably report on the mixture used there).

You can (as well as with the SERT) set the closed-loop bias on the O2 sensors to achieve a reliable 14.2:1 closed-loop AFR (with straight gasoline). This is the minimum recommended AFR to use with the stock O2 sensors and really is sufficient for "cooling the bike down" though you can set the idle AFR to whatever value you want, going open-loop there if you wish. This really helps to keep things nice at idle and doesn't create a richer mixture at cruise at the same time like the *IEDs (or the vastly more expensive, for just that purpose, LC-1s) do.

If you don't need a usb-serial converter, you can get the tuner, software, and cables to your door for just over $400. This tuner is actually the follow-up generation of the SERT. TTS was the supplier to H-D of the SERT but H-D quit the relationship and TTS has now released the product with features/capability that H-D didn't want available with their SERT.

The stock O2 sensors are inexpensive, reliable, quick-acting, and don't need periodic free-air calibration like the sensors in the LC-1 (and TMax and DTT) do. So they don't allow you to run closed-loop at all times. So what...

The Delphi EFI is very good at what it does and has some excellent features. Getting it to work the way you want, directly, is the best solution, and should just be done at the outset to save a lot of time and money.

 

Thanks Glens, sounds like all good info here. My IED'S will be here tomorrow and I am going to give them a shot to see what happens. If it doesn't do what I want I will be looking for more help on this for sure. I have a lot to learn no doubt.

 

Glens,

I appreciate the feedback regarding the LC-1 WBO2 sensors I posted. I'm really dumb about this ECM/EFI stuff. It was simple when I just had carbs to deal with. Just change the jets or taper the needles, balance the carbs and go race. So please enlighten me. What is a TTS? Can it just be run with the stock ECM or must it be run with the PC III?

Paul Worth (pwworth)

 

Paul,

The TTS tuner is the continuation of the old "SERT" which Harley discontinued. TTS made them for H-D and the relationship has ended, so TTS improved it nicely and released it direct to the public. See http://mastertune.net/ for an overview. On the "dealers" page there, you'll see two listed (that I know of) who're members here. HDMD and Flying W. They're both great guys who'll help you with both price and use of the kit.

With it you can make the equivalent of all the changes you mentioned. And more. In much finer detail. All the wrenching you need to do to do the tuning is to plug a cable into the data port of your Electronic Control Module (the bike's brain) and click on a few things with your computer mouse. EFI is the best thing since sliced bread. To become more familiar with it, it looks like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_fuel_injection would be a fair start. You can certainly ask questions here, too.