Why adding harware over software solution?
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Road Master
Joined: Jun 2007
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Why adding harware over software solution?
I've been actively reading many threads about fuel management. Since I haven't made my final decision yet, and talking to hands-on tuners, and being a practical engineer (i think), my big question is:
Why would you pick add-on hardware fuel mgt systems over plug-in software which provides all the capability one needs to tune your scoot properly? Just makes a little more sense to use a software solution for what we are trying to achieve..
Am I not understanding or getting the whole picture?
BTW, I'm heading towards either TTS or Direct Link (ie., technoresearch)
Why would you pick add-on hardware fuel mgt systems over plug-in software which provides all the capability one needs to tune your scoot properly? Just makes a little more sense to use a software solution for what we are trying to achieve..
Am I not understanding or getting the whole picture?
BTW, I'm heading towards either TTS or Direct Link (ie., technoresearch)
Last edited by ronyd; Jan 2, 2009 at 08:02 AM.
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From:
With my Fuelpak, if I want to change anything, I can do it myself. No need to take it to a dealer to get anything "flashed".
Therefore, it's less expensive, faster, more convenient, and easier for me.
Therefore, it's less expensive, faster, more convenient, and easier for me.
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You still have to purchase the Fuelpak...Why can't the stock Harley electronics be reprogrammed (Flashed) is what I was eluding too.
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2008
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From: Irmo, SC
It can be. That is what TTS and SEST tuners are for. Yes you have to purchase those also, but you just flash the ecm versus adding extra hardware to your bike. You don't have to bring it in to dealer to have it reflashed by these devices either. I have SEST and the biggest pain in the a$$ for me is getting the seat off of my Deuce (I have short backrest). Hope this helps, Calvin.
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From: Indy area
The Fuelpak makes me laugh. Sorry.
Between the TTS and TechnoResearch equipment, there's a bit more capability with the TTS.
Adding a tunable bike to your stable might be cheaper with the TR stuff if you've previously obtained the ECU-writing equipment. In that case, all you'd need to acquire is another USB key for the new ECU. If you contemplate this being a one-time/one-bike or one-time/two-bike acquisition, the complete TR setup for writing maps to the ECU is more expensive. If you merely want the ability to write a new map to your bike and have a nearby shop with the writing equipment then the TR would be worth serious consideration. But then again, the TTS system really is more capable, allowing you to fine-tune your map either semi-automatically or manually and you can write your tunes at will at home. You can even fetch the programming from your ECU and put it back later, if you want. I'm pretty sure there are more adjustments available via the TTS than the TR, too, including speedometer calibration.
Native ECU program variable manipulation is definitely the way to go. Our Delphi systems are really quite good; they have some neat features like Ion Sensing. (I just wish there was a reliable and unobtrusive way to make use of a MAF sensor)
There have to be latency issues with a piggyback unit of any kind, if nothing else. Plus there's at least one more major electrical interconnect. And you have to find some place to mount it and route any wiring. In a pinch it's okay. I used a PC-III for a bit over a year while deciding what I really wanted to do. I went with the TTS. And I'd been offered a really sweet deal on a DTT TCFI kit.
Between the TTS and TechnoResearch equipment, there's a bit more capability with the TTS.
Adding a tunable bike to your stable might be cheaper with the TR stuff if you've previously obtained the ECU-writing equipment. In that case, all you'd need to acquire is another USB key for the new ECU. If you contemplate this being a one-time/one-bike or one-time/two-bike acquisition, the complete TR setup for writing maps to the ECU is more expensive. If you merely want the ability to write a new map to your bike and have a nearby shop with the writing equipment then the TR would be worth serious consideration. But then again, the TTS system really is more capable, allowing you to fine-tune your map either semi-automatically or manually and you can write your tunes at will at home. You can even fetch the programming from your ECU and put it back later, if you want. I'm pretty sure there are more adjustments available via the TTS than the TR, too, including speedometer calibration.
Native ECU program variable manipulation is definitely the way to go. Our Delphi systems are really quite good; they have some neat features like Ion Sensing. (I just wish there was a reliable and unobtrusive way to make use of a MAF sensor)
There have to be latency issues with a piggyback unit of any kind, if nothing else. Plus there's at least one more major electrical interconnect. And you have to find some place to mount it and route any wiring. In a pinch it's okay. I used a PC-III for a bit over a year while deciding what I really wanted to do. I went with the TTS. And I'd been offered a really sweet deal on a DTT TCFI kit.
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2008
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From: Irmo, SC
I personaly would rather have the TTS or SEST over Techno Research because it would allow me to "fondle" anytime my little heart desires. Later, Calvin.
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Road Master
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+1 on what's has been said. I too am a little concern about just purchasing a "key" versus having a complete setup (ie., TTS) that I may want to diddle with.
On the other hand, I like that I foubd a real good tuner. Hard to bet even though his prefers TR...
Glens, I read in other threads that you had referred to the "ECU writing equipment". TR says that you have the capability to "Re-flash calibrations maps via serial programming into the ECU". Is this not the software or are they eluding to additional hardware?
On the other hand, I like that I foubd a real good tuner. Hard to bet even though his prefers TR...
Glens, I read in other threads that you had referred to the "ECU writing equipment". TR says that you have the capability to "Re-flash calibrations maps via serial programming into the ECU". Is this not the software or are they eluding to additional hardware?
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From: Indy area
It takes a serial interface to the ECU to talk to it. As I understand it, the communication is via AT commands.
The TR website is quite confusing (and I hate navigating a website all within a Flash presentation where hitting the browser's "back button" kicks you plumb out of the site instead of taking you back to their other page you'd viewed just previously).
In the pictures and in the manual, it would seem as though the serial interface is included but it also seems as though it's not by some of the language. In a thread here a while back, one "eddfive" (or so) was pushing it as a good alternative. Turns out he owns the equipment which writes to the ECU and in answer to a direct question he stated one would need to buy the separate hardware to do the writing, apart from the USB key you receive and program to your bike to unlock the software. This is what makes it so attractive. You only need to buy a key per bike and not all the hardware again, like with the SERT & family. That's what he's led us to believe, at any rate. I've not taken the time to contact the manufacturer and ask... It's certainly plausible.
If you have a tuner you like who can use the TR, (s)he can use the TTS just as easily. In fact, it will speed up the tune on the dyno using the v-tune, or you can get a solid 90% of it yourself before you even get there, drastically cutting down on dyno time.
The TR website is quite confusing (and I hate navigating a website all within a Flash presentation where hitting the browser's "back button" kicks you plumb out of the site instead of taking you back to their other page you'd viewed just previously).
In the pictures and in the manual, it would seem as though the serial interface is included but it also seems as though it's not by some of the language. In a thread here a while back, one "eddfive" (or so) was pushing it as a good alternative. Turns out he owns the equipment which writes to the ECU and in answer to a direct question he stated one would need to buy the separate hardware to do the writing, apart from the USB key you receive and program to your bike to unlock the software. This is what makes it so attractive. You only need to buy a key per bike and not all the hardware again, like with the SERT & family. That's what he's led us to believe, at any rate. I've not taken the time to contact the manufacturer and ask... It's certainly plausible.
If you have a tuner you like who can use the TR, (s)he can use the TTS just as easily. In fact, it will speed up the tune on the dyno using the v-tune, or you can get a solid 90% of it yourself before you even get there, drastically cutting down on dyno time.
Road Master
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Iowa
Sometimes when you change hardware (ECM and all) such as when a Thundermax is installed, It just is a better setup than any software you could flash the OEM with.
5 wire wide-band O2 sensors and autotune capabilities (in any climate or elevation) won out over a piggy back and numerous tweaking sessions for me.
5 wire wide-band O2 sensors and autotune capabilities (in any climate or elevation) won out over a piggy back and numerous tweaking sessions for me.