Chech Engine Light
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Intermediate
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Chech Engine Light
Still looking for an answer! I have a 2011 softail heritage. The question I have is about the check engine lamp. In the manual it states the lamp normally comes on when the ignition is first turned on and remains on for approx 4 secs as the engine management system runs a series of self-diagnotics. This was true when I first got the bike, but now it never comes on. I asked the dealer about it, but they told me there was not a problem unless the light comes on when riding the bike and it remains on. The question I have is should it come on when I first turn the ignition on and run the diagnostic check or does it matter if it never comes on?
If it never comes on during the self diagnostics, how would you know if there is a genuine check engine light and fault code when driving? If there is a problem with the indicator then you would never know if there was a current fault condition in the control system.
I took my bike back to HD for a check and they could not find a problem with the check engine light....I just had them make a note of it in case there is a problem in the future.. It still to this day comes on intermittently, so I still don't have a good answer as to why it doesn't come on all the time.
Would really like to get an answer before the warranty runs out and I have a problem. Any answers would be appreciated.
If it never comes on during the self diagnostics, how would you know if there is a genuine check engine light and fault code when driving? If there is a problem with the indicator then you would never know if there was a current fault condition in the control system.
I took my bike back to HD for a check and they could not find a problem with the check engine light....I just had them make a note of it in case there is a problem in the future.. It still to this day comes on intermittently, so I still don't have a good answer as to why it doesn't come on all the time.
Would really like to get an answer before the warranty runs out and I have a problem. Any answers would be appreciated.
Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 138
Likes: 2
From: Small Country
Here is how the Check Engine Light (CEL) works:
1.) If Ignition has been OFF for more that 20 sec. then the CEL should come ON for 4 sec. when you turn IGN. ON. During this time the ECM does the self-diagnostics. If there is no problem the CEL goes OFF, otherwise it stays ON.
2.) If you turn Ignition OFF and then right back ON (within less than 15 sec) the CEL will not come ON. The reason for this is:
a. The processor of the ECM does not shut down immediately after Ignition OFF . It is like “Windows” when displaying “Windows is shutting down”, the computer is doing housekeeping and storing the current data.
b. It takes for the ECM about 15 sec. to completely shut down
c. An “Ignition Cycle” for the ECM constitutes of the time Ignition is turned ON till the time the ECM shuts down, not till the time you turn Ignition Off. As you can see, the ECM “Ignition Cycle” is 15 sec. longer than the actual vehicle ignition cycle
d. ECM does diagnostics only in one ignition cycle. If you turn IGN OFF and then back ON the ECM is still in the same Ignition Cycle and it will not repeat the diagnostics since it was already completed just seconds before. Therefore the CEL will not turn ON
3.) If you turn the Ignition Switch first to ACC. and then (after more than 3 sec) to Ignition then the CEL will not come ON.
This one is a little bit of an ‘idiosyncrasy” . The logic is:
- in ACC. the CEL is not supposed to come ON since it is not a mode the engine would run
- however, the on 2011 Softails the ECM “wakes up” anyways and does it’s check in ACC. Mode, so when you turn to Ignition later the check has already been completed, no need for another one.
Bottom line: If your CEL does not come ON when you turn the Ignition Switch directly to Ignition and after it’s been off for more than 20 sec. then there may be a problem with the ECM.
You can easily verify if your ECM diagnostics is working:
- Disconnect the Coil connector
- Try to crank the vehicle – a code should be set and the CEL should turn ON
I hope this helps to put your mind at peace?
1.) If Ignition has been OFF for more that 20 sec. then the CEL should come ON for 4 sec. when you turn IGN. ON. During this time the ECM does the self-diagnostics. If there is no problem the CEL goes OFF, otherwise it stays ON.
2.) If you turn Ignition OFF and then right back ON (within less than 15 sec) the CEL will not come ON. The reason for this is:
a. The processor of the ECM does not shut down immediately after Ignition OFF . It is like “Windows” when displaying “Windows is shutting down”, the computer is doing housekeeping and storing the current data.
b. It takes for the ECM about 15 sec. to completely shut down
c. An “Ignition Cycle” for the ECM constitutes of the time Ignition is turned ON till the time the ECM shuts down, not till the time you turn Ignition Off. As you can see, the ECM “Ignition Cycle” is 15 sec. longer than the actual vehicle ignition cycle
d. ECM does diagnostics only in one ignition cycle. If you turn IGN OFF and then back ON the ECM is still in the same Ignition Cycle and it will not repeat the diagnostics since it was already completed just seconds before. Therefore the CEL will not turn ON
3.) If you turn the Ignition Switch first to ACC. and then (after more than 3 sec) to Ignition then the CEL will not come ON.
This one is a little bit of an ‘idiosyncrasy” . The logic is:
- in ACC. the CEL is not supposed to come ON since it is not a mode the engine would run
- however, the on 2011 Softails the ECM “wakes up” anyways and does it’s check in ACC. Mode, so when you turn to Ignition later the check has already been completed, no need for another one.
Bottom line: If your CEL does not come ON when you turn the Ignition Switch directly to Ignition and after it’s been off for more than 20 sec. then there may be a problem with the ECM.
You can easily verify if your ECM diagnostics is working:
- Disconnect the Coil connector
- Try to crank the vehicle – a code should be set and the CEL should turn ON
I hope this helps to put your mind at peace?
Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2010
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ok, I understand, there must be a problem with my ECM, because even if I don't ride my bike for a week or longer there is syill no light. Then everyone in a while when I go to start it at a later time the light may come on. Any recommendations on how I get this fixed?
Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 138
Likes: 2
From: Small Country
ok, I understand, there must be a problem with my ECM, because even if I don't ride my bike for a week or longer there is syill no light. Then everyone in a while when I go to start it at a later time the light may come on. Any recommendations on how I get this fixed?
Which one is the case?
As I recomended you earlier, unplug the ignition coil connector; then place the Run/Stop switch in RUN position, then turn Ignition ON, then press and hold the Start button for 3-4 sec. (crank the engine). If the CEL does not come On then you have a problem.
The CEL in the Speedo is commanded by the ECM via the CAN bus. The light may come ON or OFF "everyone in a while " only if the CAN bus goes down and the ECM can't communicate the results of the diagnostics. But if your CAN bus was going down you won't be able to start the bike, your hand controls would not be working since all commands from the hand controls are also communicated on the CAN bus.
Diagnostics routine is embeded in the software of the ECM. The software can't change everyone in a while. In this aspect the ECM is either working or not, it can't chose one time to do diagnostics and another time not to do diagnostics.
Also, if the ECM was falling off the CAN bus then the other modules would have set error codes.
In short, if you know where the Ignition Coil is, unplug it, crank the bike and see if the CEL comes ON. If it does, then your ECM is OK.
By the way, are all electrical parts on the vehicle stock or not? Is your Speedo original or it is from the harley accessories?
Last edited by Aborigen2; Dec 21, 2011 at 06:30 PM.
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Intermediate
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Just to clear it up........it doesn't come on everytime..........maybe 1 out of 10 times starting the bike. It could set for a week and still no light. This problem has occured since I purchased the bike. I asked the dealer about it and they said there was nothing wrong with it. I have asked others about it and they think there may be a problem. Every bike I have looked at and started have all had the light come on prior to starting everytime.
I have since had a few mods...pipes, air filter and sert, but the problem is still there.
I do recall when I turned it in for my 1000mi service it worked fine when I picked it up, but then it started doing the same thing.....makes me wonder if there may be a short or something.....is this possible? thanks for all the great things to try.
I have since had a few mods...pipes, air filter and sert, but the problem is still there.
I do recall when I turned it in for my 1000mi service it worked fine when I picked it up, but then it started doing the same thing.....makes me wonder if there may be a short or something.....is this possible? thanks for all the great things to try.
Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 138
Likes: 2
From: Small Country
I see you are too worried about the CEL but the only one who can help clearing this out is yourself – please print out the explanations and instructions below, go by your scooter and verify it.
BACKGROUND:
The electrical system on 2011 and 2012 Softail and 2012 Dyna is different from all other Harley vehicles. All electronic modules are different, the power moding is different, the system is based on CAN bus, not on J1850 bus as the older vehicles. And the CEL works differently.
So, please don’t compare the operation of the CEL with the way it works on other then listed bikes.
If there are no problems in the system the only reason the CEL is activated at Ignition On is to verify that the LED (the CEL ) is OK. This was a legacy thing from the days those lights were directly driven by the modules, each indicator had it’s own wire, and the indicators were actually little bulbs which had the habit of burning out every now and then. On your vehicles all warning indicators are activated via a digital message send on the CAN bus. And the only reasons the an Indicator may fail to work is if the sending module is not communicating on the bus, or the bus is down all together. And as I mentioned earlier, if that was the case you wouldn’t be able to start and run the vehicle at all.
The real purpose of the CEL is to come ON and stay ON when there is a problem and thus to alert the rider that there is something wrong with the electrical system. Once you see that the CEL is solid ON then you can activate the diagnostics through the Speedo and find out what error code has been set, what exactly is wrong with the system.
On Harleys with CAN Bus all modules “wake up” when the CAN bus is activated. And here is the caviar – the bus gets activated (waken up) when:
- When Ignition is turned to ON
- When Ignition is turned to ACC
- When you hit the Trip Switch
- When you hit the Run/Stop Switch
- When you pick up the bike (if you have Security system)
Once the CAN bus is ON the ECM does its diagnostics right away. And if you turn Ignition ON while the bus has been awaken first then the CEL does not come ON
As you can see, depending on what you do when you get by the vehicle the CEL may or may not come ON when you go to Ignition.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, if you turn Ignition ON, then OFF and back ON within less than 15 sec. then the CEL will not come ON.
INSTRUCTIONS:
If you follow the instructions below you can definitely verify if you have any problem or not.
1.) Verifying the Speedo wakes up on time and gets the messages on the CAN bus:
- Turn Ignition ON – the BCM (Body Control Module) light should come ON right away, with no delay. That is the Red LED just right of the hub of the Speedo hand.
2.) Verifying that ECM Diagnostics works and that the ECM communicates with the Speedo:
- A. Turn Ignition OFF
- B. Press and hold the Trip Switch down
- C. Turn Ignition ON – the Speedo shall display “DIAG” in the ODO display
- D. Release the Trip Switch shortly then press it down again – the ODO shall display “ECM”
- E. Release the Trip Switch and press it again – the ODO shall display “NONE” if there are no historic codes, or display letter P and 4 digits if there is any historic code set.
This procedure completely verifies that the ECM is healthy and communicating on the bus.
3.) Verifying that ECM diagnoses and displays errors:
- start by clearing any historic codes you may have in the ECM. You need to do this only if at the previous check the ODO did not display “NONE” but showed some error code starting with letter P or letter U.
- Repeat steps A to E above. When the error code is displayed release the trip switch shortly, then press and hold till the ODO displays “CLEAR”, then release trip switch and press and hold again.
Now that the codes are cleared turn Ignition OFF and unplug the connector to the ignition coil.
- turn Ignition ON and crank the starter for 3-4 sec – the CEL should come ON
If you now go back and do Diagnostics again you’ll find a P-code for the ignition Coil.
This precludes all diagnostics- your scooter is just fine.
The whole verification should take you no more than 10 minutes, and you can put your mind at peace.
And don’t forget to plug the ignition coil back in! J)
BACKGROUND:
The electrical system on 2011 and 2012 Softail and 2012 Dyna is different from all other Harley vehicles. All electronic modules are different, the power moding is different, the system is based on CAN bus, not on J1850 bus as the older vehicles. And the CEL works differently.
So, please don’t compare the operation of the CEL with the way it works on other then listed bikes.
If there are no problems in the system the only reason the CEL is activated at Ignition On is to verify that the LED (the CEL ) is OK. This was a legacy thing from the days those lights were directly driven by the modules, each indicator had it’s own wire, and the indicators were actually little bulbs which had the habit of burning out every now and then. On your vehicles all warning indicators are activated via a digital message send on the CAN bus. And the only reasons the an Indicator may fail to work is if the sending module is not communicating on the bus, or the bus is down all together. And as I mentioned earlier, if that was the case you wouldn’t be able to start and run the vehicle at all.
The real purpose of the CEL is to come ON and stay ON when there is a problem and thus to alert the rider that there is something wrong with the electrical system. Once you see that the CEL is solid ON then you can activate the diagnostics through the Speedo and find out what error code has been set, what exactly is wrong with the system.
On Harleys with CAN Bus all modules “wake up” when the CAN bus is activated. And here is the caviar – the bus gets activated (waken up) when:
- When Ignition is turned to ON
- When Ignition is turned to ACC
- When you hit the Trip Switch
- When you hit the Run/Stop Switch
- When you pick up the bike (if you have Security system)
Once the CAN bus is ON the ECM does its diagnostics right away. And if you turn Ignition ON while the bus has been awaken first then the CEL does not come ON
As you can see, depending on what you do when you get by the vehicle the CEL may or may not come ON when you go to Ignition.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, if you turn Ignition ON, then OFF and back ON within less than 15 sec. then the CEL will not come ON.
INSTRUCTIONS:
If you follow the instructions below you can definitely verify if you have any problem or not.
1.) Verifying the Speedo wakes up on time and gets the messages on the CAN bus:
- Turn Ignition ON – the BCM (Body Control Module) light should come ON right away, with no delay. That is the Red LED just right of the hub of the Speedo hand.
2.) Verifying that ECM Diagnostics works and that the ECM communicates with the Speedo:
- A. Turn Ignition OFF
- B. Press and hold the Trip Switch down
- C. Turn Ignition ON – the Speedo shall display “DIAG” in the ODO display
- D. Release the Trip Switch shortly then press it down again – the ODO shall display “ECM”
- E. Release the Trip Switch and press it again – the ODO shall display “NONE” if there are no historic codes, or display letter P and 4 digits if there is any historic code set.
This procedure completely verifies that the ECM is healthy and communicating on the bus.
3.) Verifying that ECM diagnoses and displays errors:
- start by clearing any historic codes you may have in the ECM. You need to do this only if at the previous check the ODO did not display “NONE” but showed some error code starting with letter P or letter U.
- Repeat steps A to E above. When the error code is displayed release the trip switch shortly, then press and hold till the ODO displays “CLEAR”, then release trip switch and press and hold again.
Now that the codes are cleared turn Ignition OFF and unplug the connector to the ignition coil.
- turn Ignition ON and crank the starter for 3-4 sec – the CEL should come ON
If you now go back and do Diagnostics again you’ll find a P-code for the ignition Coil.
This precludes all diagnostics- your scooter is just fine.
The whole verification should take you no more than 10 minutes, and you can put your mind at peace.
And don’t forget to plug the ignition coil back in! J)
Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2010
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wow!!! This is good information. Maybe if the dealer would have taken the time to explain this to me I would be could to go. My bike does have the security system and that may be why I don't see the light come on.
I will try steps 1 & 2 , but I'm not sure about step 3.....need to get a better understanding of what is what on the bike. I need a service manual so I can start doing some of the work on my bike.
I really appreciate you for taking the time to answer my question and at this point I feel alot better about the lamp question.
Just one more quick question...how did you learn all of this stuff....mechanic or just been around bike for a long time?
thanks for the help
I will try steps 1 & 2 , but I'm not sure about step 3.....need to get a better understanding of what is what on the bike. I need a service manual so I can start doing some of the work on my bike.
I really appreciate you for taking the time to answer my question and at this point I feel alot better about the lamp question.
Just one more quick question...how did you learn all of this stuff....mechanic or just been around bike for a long time?
thanks for the help
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Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 138
Likes: 2
From: Small Country
I just to spent the last 35 years working in Automotive Electronics industry and have some knowledge how things really work. I like to troubleshoot a lot, prevents me from geting senile.
) Dealers don't know all the details, they never do. At the most they see the symptoms of a problem but rarely understand the physics behind it.
And helping my fellows riders is fun, I like it.
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Cruiser
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 138
Likes: 2
From: Small Country
Since you have Security on your bike this is what is really happening:
- When you turn Ignition ON the Security Module starts polling for the presence of the owner (with the FOB in his pocket).
- As soon as you turn the Ignition Switch ON the Security Module wakes up the CAN Bus and all electronic modules, including the ECM
- All modules start their initialization and self-diagnostics, waiting for the Security Module to complete the FOB verification and give them OK to run.
- If your FOB is a bit away, or you have some metal or cell phone in the same pocket as the FOB, or there is some electrical power equipment operating nearby, or some other transmitters like house security system and alike, that may prevent the Security Module to establish connection with the FOB right away. It may take several seconds before the system actually disarms.
- By the time the system disarms (the Red dot on the right side of the speedo goes OFF) the ECM has already completed its diagnostics, and the CEL may never come.
- Sometimes, if the FOB verification completes within 1 or 2 seconds, you’ll see the CEL flash just briefly.
I don’t think you have anything to worry about – your scooter is perfectly fine.
- When you turn Ignition ON the Security Module starts polling for the presence of the owner (with the FOB in his pocket).
- As soon as you turn the Ignition Switch ON the Security Module wakes up the CAN Bus and all electronic modules, including the ECM
- All modules start their initialization and self-diagnostics, waiting for the Security Module to complete the FOB verification and give them OK to run.
- If your FOB is a bit away, or you have some metal or cell phone in the same pocket as the FOB, or there is some electrical power equipment operating nearby, or some other transmitters like house security system and alike, that may prevent the Security Module to establish connection with the FOB right away. It may take several seconds before the system actually disarms.
- By the time the system disarms (the Red dot on the right side of the speedo goes OFF) the ECM has already completed its diagnostics, and the CEL may never come.
- Sometimes, if the FOB verification completes within 1 or 2 seconds, you’ll see the CEL flash just briefly.
I don’t think you have anything to worry about – your scooter is perfectly fine.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,846
Likes: 173
From: Simi Valley, CA
You are wellcome, I'm glad I could help you.
I just to spent the last 35 years working in Automotive Electronics industry and have some knowledge how things really work. I like to troubleshoot a lot, prevents me from geting senile.)
Dealers don't know all the details, they never do. At the most they see the symptoms of a problem but rarely understand the physics behind it.
And helping my fellows riders is fun, I like it.
I just to spent the last 35 years working in Automotive Electronics industry and have some knowledge how things really work. I like to troubleshoot a lot, prevents me from geting senile.
) Dealers don't know all the details, they never do. At the most they see the symptoms of a problem but rarely understand the physics behind it.
And helping my fellows riders is fun, I like it.
What I kept thinking is that the HD service manual and electrical diagnostic manual do a very good job of describing the troubleshooting and repair procedures, but they give very little information on the theories and functioning of the systems.
Understanding how something works is key to analyzing a problem. That is where most, including dealership service departments, fall way short.