Ok,
before I get blasted, I did a search and didn't find a satisfactory answer to my question.
I Have a stock 2014 Heritage softail classic...going to do a stage one upgrade in stages....first pipes, then intake later.
What role does a tuner play in terms of replacing dealer dyno services, if any?
If I get the tuner will I still need to take it to the dealer when I get the pipes, and then again when I get the Intake?
And if the answer to that is yes, then why would You buy one?

 

While we wait for experts to give you a better answer I will say this about the PowerCommander tuner as an example. It is a piggy back type that only changes signals from your ECM. It plugs in inline and is removable. There are many "maps" available free from them. These maps are matched by you to the equipment you have and then loaded by you into your tuner using a laptop with their software installed. In most cases I think it is safe to say that a dyno is not necessary....sure at some point they are the best solution and any good dyno operator can modify your map in real time. The "canned" map as loaded by you from the library of maps will keep bike safe and greatly enhance overall running. Later it can be changed or modified as you or dyno guy sees fit. Without a tuner of some sort it is entirely possible to look really fast while a stock bike passes you, in the meantime you are braising your thighs waiting for your valves to burn. Research the tuner options and once you decide read the instructions. Personally I do not think the best solution is the thingy your dealer wants to sell you that must be tuned by the dealer on the dyno thingy in their shop by the dyno guy who might know his beans.

Opinions will vary but I have used both a PCIII and PCV for several years and it does exactly what it is told to do. Take some time to better acquaint yourself....that way you do not fear the unknown. Nothing mysterious or magical

 

Your engine is nothing more than an air pump. Air goes in and air comes out.

Along with this air is fuel. Fuel goes in as gasoline and comes out as heated exhaust.

OK. There are a few components that direct and control the amount of air that flow through an engine. On our bikes? It will be the design of the heads, the cams, the intake and the exhaust. Change any one of these, for performance or noise, and the amount of air flowing through the engine will increase.

The amount of fuel and air entering your engine can be described as a ratio. This ratio is the 'air fuel ratio'. AFR for short.

You will hear folks talk about 14.7 AFR 13.2 AFR, etc. WHat they are describing is the ratio of a pound of air -vs- the amount of fuel being used.

An internal combustion engine has ranges that the engine will perform as required. Go too far away from these ideals, and bad things can happen.

This is what a 'tuner' does. ALter things inside of the ECU on the bike. ECU is the 'computer' onboard.

Back in the day.... we altered the sizes of the jets in a carburetor. We altered the weights inside of a distributor, to alter timing. The computer on your bike is just like the computer on your car... it always tries to deliver the exact amount of fuel that is programmed inside of it.

When you change your exhaust, especially on a Harley, you allow way more air to flow thru this air pump. Problem is... the computer can only compensate only so much for this increase in air.

That being the case? The AFR becomes more into the 15 or even 16:1 ratio, as opposed to the 13.2 thru 14.7 AFR. This is called a 'lean' condition. That means there is not enough fuel per pound of air. WIthout enough fuel, the engine becomes hot. Sometimes very hot, during operation.

Some will argue about how lean is too lean. My best observation is this: from the factory... the bike is already too lean for best performance and longevity. This is all driven by EPA regulations. Regulations made for car companies that manufacture water cooled engines. Air cooled, like our bikes? It is simply not enough fuel to keep things happy.

So, we have 'tuners' to adjust fuel to gain back that AFR that will make things run well, and run cooler.

There ARE some band aides, like the things folks plug into their O2 sensors. IMHO, these are NOT the fix for things at all. These may add fuel at low rpm, but not higher rpm, and .... do not alter timing. Just like fuel is lean... timing is reduced in a stock bike to help burn all of the NOX from the exhaust.

A Tuner can allow a person to alter timing and fuel for a better running bike.

Now, it sounds like you have no clue how an engine works. Thats OK, you do what you do for a living, and some of us do what we do, right?

You will end up getting a TON of advice. Most of it may very well be false on what to try and what to buy.

If this bike is only for a year or two then trade it in? That is a huge difference than if you plan on keeping the bike for quite awhile.

If you will be trading it in next year anyways, ... Hell put a set of pipes on it and forget about it. Will it be right? Hell, no... but it will go down the road fine.

If you are going to keep it? At a minimum, you need to increase fuel. I might just recommend a Fuel Pac 3 for you for that. Its a true DIY tool for folks that have no interest or ability in grasping what an engine needs and sure beats doing nothing.

If you ARE going to keep the bike. Then... the best bet is to find a local dyno shop. And yes... everytime you alter things, you need a tune. The better bet is to do the Stage 1 upgrade all at once. One tune and done.

A proper Stage 1 is NOT cheap. Pipes, AC, tuner, and tune is quite expensive, but the bike will run at its best, and longevity will be increased from Stock.

My recommendations to riders is to leave things be, until you can do the whole deal all at once.

Now... everybody under the sun will be telling you that you can do these things yourself. And... you can. But... with the questions you raise, being able to properly operate a tuning device would be beyond things for youm until you buckle down and study things... so that if you were to DIY it... you have some kind of clue.

This is why I either recommend a FP3, over all the hookie don't work crap like 02 sensor plugs, etc., or... either learn a bit about what an engine really needs and wants for tuning... or pay someone whose job it is to tune bikes.

Lastly, do NOT have a friggen dealer perform the tuning services. Dealers are notorious for NOT tuning bikes very well.

ANd lastly... dealers can perform what they call a 'flash' to the bike. Don't bother to waste the money for that.

The above post to mine? The guy that thinks a dyno doesn't work a million times better than what he does (place 1909 tech on a 21st century bike), is simply ludicrous.

 

Truk I recommend you reread my comment that you called ludicrous.

I stand by my statement that a dyno is not 'necessary' for a simple "stage one", a tuner is, for the reasons I noted. Please remember tuner here refers to an electronic device....not a person who calls himself a tuner

A good dyno tune is great. My Deuce has logged a lot of pulls on more than one occasion. I didn't bother bragging about it.

Dealers are not noted for anything but selling Harley stuff called tuners at Harley prices and do call themselves tuners although dyno operator might be more descriptive. Not everyone who has a dyno available can surpass a good canned map on "stage 1" ....I am blessed with a whacko genius tuner that had his personality surgically removed nearby who can and does

I recommended the OP educate himself before making decisions....I think he knows something about air pumps or he wouldn't have asked. Not having my own dyno does not disqualify me from advising him to learn about his choices

 

Hmmmmm... I will ponder that response, but we are most likely good.

And... back to the OP. I happen to agree with some of the folks in regards to what AFR the engine outputs, stock will not really 'harm' an engine. Some tuners claim it will.

My observations are more based upon how a bike rides or performs. Stock bikes can get so hot, Harley included a system called EITMS in some models. This shuts off a cylinder until the bike cools off. Get stuck in traffic? Forget about it with a stock tuned bike. Nice, really nice, low speed response? Not from a stock tuned bike. CHange pipes? Makes this crap worse. So... it is not so much about harming the engine (but I cannot help things are great when a cylinder shuts down due to heat), it is ALL about how the bike rides in normal use.

Proper fuel makes the bike run better. Proper fuel AND timing can make a bike run Great. For a friend of mine? 100% stock bike... stock pipes and all... I bought and used a TTS to tune his bike with and he could not believe the differences in HOW it rode. ACtaully, I couldn't either. Not much differences in the power... but way more easy to ride.

Remember this, OP.... most here have ONE bike. All they are telling you is what they know from that one bike. Too much ego, etc in those purchases and decisions. They all feel they have to defend what THEY bought, it MUST be GREAT, because THEY bought it. See?

A dyno tune, with TTS tuner, costs around $8-900 around here. This is from specialty tuning shops. Go look up that FP3 and see if you would feel comfortable with doing these things. I am an advocate of NOT liking the stock tune, regardless of this or that.......

 

Read post #1 in the following link, it gives a good objective overview on the subject.....after post one it start evolving into a variety of opinions, and can get confusing.

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/ignit...uning-etc.html

 

Thanks for the great responses , I DO plan on keeping this bike for a long while and want it to run as well as possible for as LONG as possible.
I know my basics about your average internal combustion engines, but when all the computer stuff started getting mixed in I lost interest and now am preety lost with all the new stuff.
I really appreciate the help.

 

Keep in mind, for the most part, you are adjusting slow speed and high speed circuits on a carb, and you will adjust initial and advanced timing.

With a full featured tune, or tuner, what you get with EFI is simply amazing.

There are over 20 tables that can, if need be, be adjusted for the best running bike as possible.

Timing is really cool. WIth a TTS tuner, there is timing for when the throttle is closed. There is high speed timing when throttle is closed also. There are temperature tables that lower timing if engine gets too hot.. simply from the engine itself, or a combination of high temps outside AND the engine. Plus, timing tables are NOTHING like a car with a distributor, even tho I tell you to think in these terms.

There are 'maps' inside that are simply grids, that can each have slightly different timing, depending upon what the engine needs. 1/2 throttle at 2200 rpms is way different from 1/8 throttle at 2500 rpms, etc. All adjustable and thought out decently by some of the Tuner manufacturers.

Then there is fuel. You have Acell tables which is similar to a shot from an acell pump. You have decel tables that can take away when certain conditions hit. EFI uses what is called and Intake Air Control (IAC) to control 'choke' functions. With software, you can control how much the IAC opens and how fast it does so. There is also a power enrichment table that works like a carbs power enrichment circuit. Like on a 4bbl Holley. We don't use that much on street bikes because the metering of the injectors is so precise. Some tuners allow one to pick exactly when the fuel is sprayed on the intake valve for a nice smooth engine. Others allow you to compensate for how much old exhaust gets sucked back into the cylinder.

On and On and ON.

Such a better system than when we all had carbs.

The downside is cost and how complex things are anymore. I am guessing here, but out of all the motorcycle dynos out there, there is probably truly only a couple hundred actually qualified tuners out there. The rest we will call dyno operators.

Like dealers, the basic recommendation is to stay AWAY from dealers when messing with upgrading the tune inside of your bike. When the dealer bout the dyno, maybe they trained a guy and he was... ok. But now, 8 guys later, all they do is swwap maps to see what runs the best. NO dealers, OK? Even if you feel that is the easiest option, unless you are at Gails HD in Kansas City, dealers suck.

OK, you get the picture for sure.

I would really like to recommend a tuning shop ear you, if I knew whereabouts where you lived. But... that option will run you 8-900 bucks, like I said.

There are some other decent choices out there for a guy like you. I have a dyno and I tune bikes... and I will 'always' recommend a tuning shop, right?

But... for 'lesser' bikes, and by that more towards stock, I will now recommend that Fuel Pack 3 by Vance and Hines. Like they say, so simple a cave man can do it. I like the #3, because it will alter timing somewhat and THAT my friend, is as big an issue as fuel ever was.

That probably will be $350ish for you and it uses a smart phone and it is simple plug and play. Nothing fancy like a full blown full featured tuner like TTS that costs $450. That, simply put is hard to wrap you head around. And there are other slightly less featured tuners like SESPT (Harley's tuner) and the Power Vision by Dynojrt. Both decent tuners in their own right, but almost as complicated as a TTS.

Dude, for you? I think my recommendation is a solid one. Lesser fuel products will have to stay on the bike like any DFO 'fueler', like Fuel Pack 1 &2. etc. These do NOT address timing correctly. There is also a product some swear by called an XIED, which is a resistor you plug into the wiring harness and 'fools' the computer to add a bit more fuel. I do not like these either, because they really don't address any timing issues. There is also a slew of products from like Accell, etc that claim to tune a bike?

IMHO, all of those are junk kid toys. Fuel Packs were in that group, IMO, until the 3 came out. It actually alters the programming inside a computer just like a big boy tuner does.

$350, a smart phone and someone who is simply OK with computers? You could get it done and have a nice running bike with those new louder pipes and an air cleaner.

Those things, remember, make a bike have a Stage1. Pipes, AC and tuning. I am NOT here to sell ANYTHING, but just wish to give away knowledge. that was a hard road to learning a thing or two.

And... also remember that others read this, too. This is aimed at them as well as you.