clutch issues
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: clutch issues
Here is my take on what you describe:
i think i read in a book(dont laugh) that the rouigh edges on the steel plates were common and are just suppose to face outwards.you think its best to file the edges off the steel plates?
H-mmm, I guess I never read that book. Most clutch plates with some miles on them may be burred. If the burrs get really bad they can cause the plates to not move freely. File the burrs if it makes you feel better. (I have never filed mine, if that tells you anything) The best remedy for badly burred plates is a set of new plates.
got my 81 about a month ago..alot of learnin some ridin...no regrets.anyway the clutch was slippin bad wheni got it.adjusted it.pulls good requires a little force to get into 1st..all other gears shift fine.its very hard to start while in gear.i tightened it up more than it should and i still have that problem.i am about to replace the clutch friction/steel plates..springs and any thing else i can think of.------what else can i check..what would cause this problem?is it a trans problem?
If it is a 1981, it is too new a machine for me to comment on regarding the clutch, or the adjustment thereof.
However, the shifting I can comment on.
Yes, it will require much more force required to get it into 1st gear, than it will to shift it to the other 3. The reason is this: The engine is running in neutral. You pull in the clutch and press the lever down into first. You are going to the lowest gear, which has the greatest difference of ratio for the engine rpms versus the rear wheel rpms (which are zero because you have not started rolling yet. It goes into 1st gear with a loud clunk! Maybe the bike jumps forward a bit as well? This is quite normal.
But let me ask you this...... when you shift to first with the engine not running, does it go into gear easier? (You may have to rock the bike forward and backward to get it to engage) Does it clunk? No, it simply clicks.
The hard to put into gear is simply a combination of the engine running, the rear wheel not turning, and a normal amount of natural clutch drag. When you are rolling, shifting into 2nd, 3rd, and 4th is click-click-click. Reason for that is mainly because the bike is rolling and you have syncromesh transmission. All of the above is normal and is not a sign of problems.
To be truthful, you can be in 2nd gear running down the road with foot pressure applied to the shift lever and suddenly back off the throttle quickly. The bike will shift to 3rd (or 3rd to 4th) without pulling in the clutch faster than you can bat an eye. I do not recommend doing this for 1st to 2nd because of the lower gear ratios, but to 3rd on up is fine.
In summation, I say you have no transmission problems related to the shifting issue. If you had bent shift forks (and that can happen) then it will not shift to any gear easily.....and yours does.
Another tidbit of info: The bike is not meant to be started in gear. Most of the Sporties that have electric start also have a neutral lock out switch to prevent you from using this practice. Again, because of the natural clutch drag, being in gear causes friction and the starter does not want to spin. Start the bike only in neutral.
There is a specific procedure to adjust your clutch cable. Read the instructions and follow them to a tee. It sounds like by 'you have tightened it more than required' that you have adjusted it incorrectly already. Read the book........pg
i think i read in a book(dont laugh) that the rouigh edges on the steel plates were common and are just suppose to face outwards.you think its best to file the edges off the steel plates?
H-mmm, I guess I never read that book. Most clutch plates with some miles on them may be burred. If the burrs get really bad they can cause the plates to not move freely. File the burrs if it makes you feel better. (I have never filed mine, if that tells you anything) The best remedy for badly burred plates is a set of new plates.
got my 81 about a month ago..alot of learnin some ridin...no regrets.anyway the clutch was slippin bad wheni got it.adjusted it.pulls good requires a little force to get into 1st..all other gears shift fine.its very hard to start while in gear.i tightened it up more than it should and i still have that problem.i am about to replace the clutch friction/steel plates..springs and any thing else i can think of.------what else can i check..what would cause this problem?is it a trans problem?
If it is a 1981, it is too new a machine for me to comment on regarding the clutch, or the adjustment thereof.
However, the shifting I can comment on.
Yes, it will require much more force required to get it into 1st gear, than it will to shift it to the other 3. The reason is this: The engine is running in neutral. You pull in the clutch and press the lever down into first. You are going to the lowest gear, which has the greatest difference of ratio for the engine rpms versus the rear wheel rpms (which are zero because you have not started rolling yet. It goes into 1st gear with a loud clunk! Maybe the bike jumps forward a bit as well? This is quite normal.
But let me ask you this...... when you shift to first with the engine not running, does it go into gear easier? (You may have to rock the bike forward and backward to get it to engage) Does it clunk? No, it simply clicks.
The hard to put into gear is simply a combination of the engine running, the rear wheel not turning, and a normal amount of natural clutch drag. When you are rolling, shifting into 2nd, 3rd, and 4th is click-click-click. Reason for that is mainly because the bike is rolling and you have syncromesh transmission. All of the above is normal and is not a sign of problems.
To be truthful, you can be in 2nd gear running down the road with foot pressure applied to the shift lever and suddenly back off the throttle quickly. The bike will shift to 3rd (or 3rd to 4th) without pulling in the clutch faster than you can bat an eye. I do not recommend doing this for 1st to 2nd because of the lower gear ratios, but to 3rd on up is fine.
In summation, I say you have no transmission problems related to the shifting issue. If you had bent shift forks (and that can happen) then it will not shift to any gear easily.....and yours does.
Another tidbit of info: The bike is not meant to be started in gear. Most of the Sporties that have electric start also have a neutral lock out switch to prevent you from using this practice. Again, because of the natural clutch drag, being in gear causes friction and the starter does not want to spin. Start the bike only in neutral.
There is a specific procedure to adjust your clutch cable. Read the instructions and follow them to a tee. It sounds like by 'you have tightened it more than required' that you have adjusted it incorrectly already. Read the book........pg
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,134
Likes: 146
From: texas
RE: clutch issues
first off apologies to carson...didnt mean to take over your post just thought it was all related...and you didnt report back.
the burr issue --i beleive i read that in a book written by zimmerman but i forget name of book.
yep..not running it shifts fine.running only is 1st "jumpy".why is this ok though.in a car it would not be ok...same basic concept....?clutched in(hand lever pulled in) it will still want to go forward.i only tightened over the amount than specified to see if i could get rid of the pull but could not.i then adjusted back out.------understand what youre saying about not using the clutch..just getting off the throttle.like on a big truck.believe me i totally respect what youre saying but going into first is really bad.on everything else ive ever driven...autos..trucks..tractors very old to newer stuff...it sounds/feels bad.it seems though sometimes its worse than other times.
i will go back and adjust it again and see what happens.
the burr issue --i beleive i read that in a book written by zimmerman but i forget name of book.
yep..not running it shifts fine.running only is 1st "jumpy".why is this ok though.in a car it would not be ok...same basic concept....?clutched in(hand lever pulled in) it will still want to go forward.i only tightened over the amount than specified to see if i could get rid of the pull but could not.i then adjusted back out.------understand what youre saying about not using the clutch..just getting off the throttle.like on a big truck.believe me i totally respect what youre saying but going into first is really bad.on everything else ive ever driven...autos..trucks..tractors very old to newer stuff...it sounds/feels bad.it seems though sometimes its worse than other times.
i will go back and adjust it again and see what happens.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: clutch issues
Straydog....
Yeah, I hear you regarding the horrible clunk 'n jump with first gear. For the most part though, that is what it is with an ironhead.
What is causing this to be extra bad with yours (and also with many ironheads, mine included) is caused by the clutch dragging and the rather heavy oil used in a Sportster.
Let me say right here that I am talking about a 1974 or older machine.
Yours is a 1981 and I know you use an oil lighter than 60wt. I do not know what improvements have been made since 1974, so that is why I cannot help you on getting yours adjusted.
On mine, which is a right hand shift, there are 3 steel ball bearings sitting in a cup inside the primary case. These bearings and the cup have a ramp and the clutch cable is connected to the ramp. You must adjust this ramp correctly before youcan adjust the cable slack. It is a procedure that you have to follow to get it correct. I am sure your 1981 clutch is very similar, but I am not familar with the details. So you will have to follow the book.
I can tell you that a Sportster will never even remotely resemble a Honda, Yamaha or any other brand X machine when it comes to shifting into first gear at a standing start.
I also have a 2003 Dyna LowRider. If I kill it at a red light, all I have to do is pull in the clutch and hit the start button and if fires right up while in first gear. A Sportster (old one) will not do that. In fact, as I have said before, some Sportsters had a neutral lock out switch installed to prevent you from starting them in gear. Or trying to start them I should say. These things are meant to be started in neutral and that is just the way it is.
Oh, let me add that my 2003 Dyna also has the loud clunk! when it goes onto first also. That's just the Harley way.........pg
Yeah, I hear you regarding the horrible clunk 'n jump with first gear. For the most part though, that is what it is with an ironhead.
What is causing this to be extra bad with yours (and also with many ironheads, mine included) is caused by the clutch dragging and the rather heavy oil used in a Sportster.
Let me say right here that I am talking about a 1974 or older machine.
Yours is a 1981 and I know you use an oil lighter than 60wt. I do not know what improvements have been made since 1974, so that is why I cannot help you on getting yours adjusted.
On mine, which is a right hand shift, there are 3 steel ball bearings sitting in a cup inside the primary case. These bearings and the cup have a ramp and the clutch cable is connected to the ramp. You must adjust this ramp correctly before youcan adjust the cable slack. It is a procedure that you have to follow to get it correct. I am sure your 1981 clutch is very similar, but I am not familar with the details. So you will have to follow the book.
I can tell you that a Sportster will never even remotely resemble a Honda, Yamaha or any other brand X machine when it comes to shifting into first gear at a standing start.
I also have a 2003 Dyna LowRider. If I kill it at a red light, all I have to do is pull in the clutch and hit the start button and if fires right up while in first gear. A Sportster (old one) will not do that. In fact, as I have said before, some Sportsters had a neutral lock out switch installed to prevent you from starting them in gear. Or trying to start them I should say. These things are meant to be started in neutral and that is just the way it is.
Oh, let me add that my 2003 Dyna also has the loud clunk! when it goes onto first also. That's just the Harley way.........pg
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,134
Likes: 146
From: texas
RE: clutch issues
well that makes me feel alot better.i wondered about comparing clutch for clutch with something else/newer.as far as the oil.i have 20w50 in it now.the book called for the hd oil or the equivalent premium20w50....i used castrol.in the summer it listed 60w.when i got the bike it was slipping very bad(clutch tightened in a bunch)and when i drained the oil it was ?????????? something.the thicknessfelt less than brake fluid.i think it must have been some type of cleaner.in your opinion do you think going to the hd sport whatever would make any difference?also when running and clutched in...attempting to go to 1st should you be able to "feel" it.as in feel the transmission turning????on a tractor my bro used to have the trans was a little screwed and in at least one gear you had to apply a little pressure and wait until the trans slowed down(synchros???) and then basically jam it at a "special moment" haha.---hope that made sense.i just dont want to f up my trans.or if its already screwed not make it worse and at least i know what i got.hopefully i need to readjust my clutch and the rest clunking is acceptable.--thanks.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: clutch issues
I would use the recommended wt oil in your bike and 20-50wt sounds correct. Castrol is good oil. I would prefer to use the Harley oil if you can get it easily in your locale. For a good many years I could not get Harley oil at a dealer around where I live because they did not stock it.
In those years I used 70wt Castrol in both the engine, primary and transmission. On an old one like mine the oils mix so you need to use the same type everywhere. Yours is different.
Anyway, back when I had the 70wt oil in it and it was winter time, you had better not be standing in front of me when I put it into first gear! I mean the whole bike would just launch itself down the driveway. The heavy cold oil was just sticking the plates together and the clutch was locked up. Normal for a Sportster. After the engine warmed up it was much better and then the bike just clunked and jumped a little when put into first gear.
The Harley dealers started stocking Harley 60wt oil several years back and I was happy to see that! That is what I use now. Back in 1971 the recommended oils were Harley (of course):
#105 for extreme service in hot weather. This was approx equal to 70wt.
Normal service called for #75. This was approx equal to 60wt.
Cold weather (40°F and below) required #58. This was equal to 50wt oil.
All of those old designations were Harley's and were not an S.A.E. rating as other oils used. I guess this sold a lot of oil for Harley back then.
When you put your transmission into first gear you have a number of gears inside spinning around because of some clutch drag but mainly due to the oil making the gears spin with the clutch shaft which is turning. The clunk sound and the jump comes from two gears engaging suddenly when one or more gears are spinning around in there. The engaging gear has dogs on the side of it that engage into the side of the spinning gear. The shift forks and the cam gear move the gear sideways when you push the shift lever.
I do not think you have transmission problems at all. I think you clutch is fine also. It may need some adjustment, so read the instructions and adjust it by the book. Then you will know all is well. Just ride it and enjoy having a Harley Davidson Sportster.
Longest made model Harley has ever manufactured. The first one was in 1957 and they have been made every day of every year since then for the past 51 years now. There has never been another motorcycle made that can make that claim..........pg
In those years I used 70wt Castrol in both the engine, primary and transmission. On an old one like mine the oils mix so you need to use the same type everywhere. Yours is different.
Anyway, back when I had the 70wt oil in it and it was winter time, you had better not be standing in front of me when I put it into first gear! I mean the whole bike would just launch itself down the driveway. The heavy cold oil was just sticking the plates together and the clutch was locked up. Normal for a Sportster. After the engine warmed up it was much better and then the bike just clunked and jumped a little when put into first gear.
The Harley dealers started stocking Harley 60wt oil several years back and I was happy to see that! That is what I use now. Back in 1971 the recommended oils were Harley (of course):
#105 for extreme service in hot weather. This was approx equal to 70wt.
Normal service called for #75. This was approx equal to 60wt.
Cold weather (40°F and below) required #58. This was equal to 50wt oil.
All of those old designations were Harley's and were not an S.A.E. rating as other oils used. I guess this sold a lot of oil for Harley back then.
When you put your transmission into first gear you have a number of gears inside spinning around because of some clutch drag but mainly due to the oil making the gears spin with the clutch shaft which is turning. The clunk sound and the jump comes from two gears engaging suddenly when one or more gears are spinning around in there. The engaging gear has dogs on the side of it that engage into the side of the spinning gear. The shift forks and the cam gear move the gear sideways when you push the shift lever.
I do not think you have transmission problems at all. I think you clutch is fine also. It may need some adjustment, so read the instructions and adjust it by the book. Then you will know all is well. Just ride it and enjoy having a Harley Davidson Sportster.
Longest made model Harley has ever manufactured. The first one was in 1957 and they have been made every day of every year since then for the past 51 years now. There has never been another motorcycle made that can make that claim..........pg
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,134
Likes: 146
From: texas
RE: clutch issues
hey pinion--thanks a bunch.i rode a little today..slippin a little.. iremembered i didnt put it completely back to spec because i was trying to get rid of the 1st gear issue....adjusted it to spec. but honestly it was just to freakin bad to continue to force it into gear like that...seriously.i felt like i would have damaged it.so according to the book you back off the adjusting nut 1/8 to 1/4 turn for final adjustment.....bad or not i ended up tightening it about 1/4(no more) turn past freeplay(1st attempt 1/4 turn to no freeplay 2nd attempt1/4 turn past freeplay..total1/4 to 1/2 tighter than spec)and i have normal(what i now know as normal)jumpy first gear with no harsh meshing issue and no slippage and slight play in hand control.i feel like its good now.i can handle the jumpiness as long as its not damaging anything.----------since im new here i want you to know if i seem like i question things its not because i dont beleive you or anything....i just like understanding things even if its for future use.....even if i dont agree with someone i still want to know why they beleive it...because later i might realize i am wrong.you seem to have alot of knowledge regarding hd bikes and i am sure i will need to tap into that often.anyway--thanks.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: clutch issues
Glad to hear the bike is where you want it. Your description of the adjustment is what I was talking about.
Some guys just grab the clutch cable adjustment barrel and take out the slack. Failing to do the adjustment you mention first then will cause them big problems and they then wonder why the clutch slips..........pg
Some guys just grab the clutch cable adjustment barrel and take out the slack. Failing to do the adjustment you mention first then will cause them big problems and they then wonder why the clutch slips..........pg
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Anthony Hamilton
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