Another Screw up from the Previous Builder!
Thread Starter
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Tourer
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
From: West Tennessee
Another Screw up from the Previous Builder!
So I pulled the cam cover off yesterday to put down a new gasket and check that all the cams were lined up and that free end play was correct. I pull off the cover, pull the cams out clean everything up, and then realize I need to probably check that the oil pump is timed correctly. So I pull out my nifty HD manual and make sure I am corect in the procedure for what I have to do with that. I was right, just simply line up the timing mark in the timing hole, pinion gear and worm gear should both be lined up (or really close), both lines should be almost vertical AND the breather hole mark should be facing me. Instead this is what I get.
That's right..........it's a whole friggin 180 degree's off. I assume that the only way to fix that is to pull the motor and drop the oil pump. Usually not a big deal, but I have run out of money and time. New baby on the way and I really have no more time left to tinker for the summer. So it's just going to have to run like this until this winter when I pull the motor to paint it.
Just friggin ticks me off. This guy I bought this bike from was the absolute worst mechanic ever. He just did what ever he wanted to get the job done. So far, wiring was a hack job, oil pump not lined up right, wrong size bolts are used everywhere, he would loose bolts and then just use a different type or different looking bolt all together just to save time (thats not a huge deal since they would fit, but it drives me nuts they don't look alike), paint job was all screwed (and as you can see he even painted the inside of the motor!), and he stripped bolts from over tightening just to try and stop a leak instead of doing it the correct way by sealing it up with thread locker or thread sealer. Scares me to even think of what it would look like on the inside of the case if I opened it up. [:@] ooooo it just ticks me off!
That's right..........it's a whole friggin 180 degree's off. I assume that the only way to fix that is to pull the motor and drop the oil pump. Usually not a big deal, but I have run out of money and time. New baby on the way and I really have no more time left to tinker for the summer. So it's just going to have to run like this until this winter when I pull the motor to paint it.
Just friggin ticks me off. This guy I bought this bike from was the absolute worst mechanic ever. He just did what ever he wanted to get the job done. So far, wiring was a hack job, oil pump not lined up right, wrong size bolts are used everywhere, he would loose bolts and then just use a different type or different looking bolt all together just to save time (thats not a huge deal since they would fit, but it drives me nuts they don't look alike), paint job was all screwed (and as you can see he even painted the inside of the motor!), and he stripped bolts from over tightening just to try and stop a leak instead of doing it the correct way by sealing it up with thread locker or thread sealer. Scares me to even think of what it would look like on the inside of the case if I opened it up. [:@] ooooo it just ticks me off!
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: Another Screw up from the Previous Builder!
Randy.......
Sorry to hear of the discovery of the former owners neglect. That is what happens to a lot of machines. People just do not know what they are doing, but they do it anyway.
You are correct in saying that the solution is to remove the engine and then the pump.
However, I believe there is another way to do it, the problem being it takes a special installer/removal tool to remove the pinion gear.
If you could remove the pinion gear, then all you have to do is slip off the oil pump spiral gear behind the pinion and rotate the breather valve tube 180 degrees from where it now sits and you would be in business.
The last time I rebuild my engine I did not have this special tool, so I just made my own at home. The only tricky thing about that is the threaded end that threads into the mainshaft is a 5/16-24 Left Hand Thread. I had to buy a left hand tap and a die, but after that I had the tool.
I included a photo with the different parts needed to make this tool. I took the pic and labeled it after making the tool so that I could easily explain to others how this tool can be made at home. Hope it helps you some.........pg
edit note: This tool as shown is used to install the gear back in place. The fit of the gear is a fairly heavy sliding press fit. To remove the gear, there are a few more pieces not shown, but you can also use any type of puller, as long as the arms will get behind the gear. Also, be sure to protect the center hole in the crankshaft!!! You do not want to damage that or the left hand threads inside the shaft.
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/0393E608343C4B23AEB870DE48F13BD3.jpg[/IMG]
Sorry to hear of the discovery of the former owners neglect. That is what happens to a lot of machines. People just do not know what they are doing, but they do it anyway.
You are correct in saying that the solution is to remove the engine and then the pump.
However, I believe there is another way to do it, the problem being it takes a special installer/removal tool to remove the pinion gear.
If you could remove the pinion gear, then all you have to do is slip off the oil pump spiral gear behind the pinion and rotate the breather valve tube 180 degrees from where it now sits and you would be in business.
The last time I rebuild my engine I did not have this special tool, so I just made my own at home. The only tricky thing about that is the threaded end that threads into the mainshaft is a 5/16-24 Left Hand Thread. I had to buy a left hand tap and a die, but after that I had the tool.
I included a photo with the different parts needed to make this tool. I took the pic and labeled it after making the tool so that I could easily explain to others how this tool can be made at home. Hope it helps you some.........pg
edit note: This tool as shown is used to install the gear back in place. The fit of the gear is a fairly heavy sliding press fit. To remove the gear, there are a few more pieces not shown, but you can also use any type of puller, as long as the arms will get behind the gear. Also, be sure to protect the center hole in the crankshaft!!! You do not want to damage that or the left hand threads inside the shaft.
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/0393E608343C4B23AEB870DE48F13BD3.jpg[/IMG]
Thread Starter
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Tourer
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
From: West Tennessee
RE: Another Screw up from the Previous Builder!
Thats exactly what I was thinking PG. I just wasn't for certain if the oil pump drive gear for the oil pump slid easily off the shaft or if you had to use a gear puller with the oil pump out. But it sounds like, if I caught what you said and I hope I did catch that correctly!, that I should be able to actually just remove the piniongear and slide the drive gear off and then be able to rotate the oil pump breather. Looks like I'm on a venture to either find a way to build a tool to pull it or find a fairly cheap one on ebay.
Thanks again PG. You always seem to come along and help me out and I really appreciate it.
Thanks again PG. You always seem to come along and help me out and I really appreciate it.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: Another Screw up from the Previous Builder!
Yes, the oil spiral gear is a slip fit on the shaft. The pinion gear is a tighter fit and that is why it requires a tool. First picture is the tool from the HD manual. I am sure you have the illustration in your manual. See the piece that looks like a 'C' at the end of it? That 'C' lip grabs the back side of the pinion gear and pulls it off when you tighten up the tool. You do not need all the stuff that is shown though, because everything needed can be made in your shop possibly.
I know I made mine in 1996, so that was 4 years before I had a lathe. In other words, I made everything with hand tools in the shop.
Let me go up in the attic to see what I can find related to this tool tomorrow. If I can find the thing, I will be glad to ship it to you for your use to get the gear off and then back on. I haven't seen the tool since I last used it in 1996-1997, but it should be there. I will ping you with the results of the search...........pg
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/AD29AD435270439F978A543237D3BE3A.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/E61FEB8F8D7B464E802DF7BB19B22E41.jpg[/IMG]
I know I made mine in 1996, so that was 4 years before I had a lathe. In other words, I made everything with hand tools in the shop.
Let me go up in the attic to see what I can find related to this tool tomorrow. If I can find the thing, I will be glad to ship it to you for your use to get the gear off and then back on. I haven't seen the tool since I last used it in 1996-1997, but it should be there. I will ping you with the results of the search...........pg
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/AD29AD435270439F978A543237D3BE3A.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/E61FEB8F8D7B464E802DF7BB19B22E41.jpg[/IMG]
Road Master
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 751
Likes: 6
From: 500 miles south from Artic Circle
RE: Another Screw up from the Previous Builder!
This operation requires lot off patience... but can be done without removing engine fron frame...
Here is some pics ( by Affe) how he did it
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~affe2/hdlo...tml#1150288340
Here is some pics ( by Affe) how he did it
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~affe2/hdlo...tml#1150288340
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: Another Screw up from the Previous Builder!
Yes, although he did not mention it, there is a mark on one side of the spiral oil gear. This marked side should face out (towards the pinion gear) when the spiral gear is installed.
It would be easy to install it backwards if you were not aware that it needs to go on correctly.............pg
It would be easy to install it backwards if you were not aware that it needs to go on correctly.............pg
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 775
Likes: 2
From: OC California
RE: Another Screw up from the Previous Builder!
Oh boy, do I have an answer for this one. I just did this a little while ago. No need to pull the engine, just the pinion gear. Georges Garage has the tool for around $120. good quality and it worked ****. Is this picture with the vertical timing mark lined up in the timing hole? With the vertical mark lined up in the timing hole the breather gear should have the round mark lined up in the breather. The manual has a picture and description of this. Read it carefully, the picture can be misleading. I tried to make a tool for removing the pinion gear but failed and ended up buying one. Where are you at Supr? I still have the tool.
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: Another Screw up from the Previous Builder! TOOL NOT FOUND
Well, I had a good look this morning and cannot find the tool.
Sorry, but it may have been used for parts for building another type of tool since I made it so long ago.
The fellow who bought one from Vintage Twin and reworked it to make it fit means VT sells the tool, and that may be your best bet. Finding one on Ebay would be a miracle! This is a single purpose tool.
J&P sells the Jim's puller, but it is really expensive at $200.
I will post a response if I happen to find it...........pg
Sorry, but it may have been used for parts for building another type of tool since I made it so long ago.
The fellow who bought one from Vintage Twin and reworked it to make it fit means VT sells the tool, and that may be your best bet. Finding one on Ebay would be a miracle! This is a single purpose tool.
J&P sells the Jim's puller, but it is really expensive at $200.
I will post a response if I happen to find it...........pg
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: Another Screw up from the Previous Builder!
Very good answer Cal, now that I have egg on my face because I could not find the one I made.
$120 for a good tool is cheap compared to pulling the engine out again..........pg
$120 for a good tool is cheap compared to pulling the engine out again..........pg
Thread Starter
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Tourer
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
From: West Tennessee
RE: Another Screw up from the Previous Builder!
Calwoodbutcher, yah unfortunately the timing mark is straight up in the timing hole. I must have walked back and forth 10 times checking that and looking in the HD manual saying to myself "this can't be right I must have something wrong." Then I would get over to the breather valve look at it and say to myself "damnit, it is right it's installed wrong!" By the way I live in Tennessee.
I appreciate you and PG willing to send me the tools, and if either of you are willing I will pay you shipping and a few extra bucks for your trouble, and I will have that tool back to either of you very quickly. This is by far the best automotive forum I have ever been on, and I have been quite a few. I used to work on customizing Chevy S-10's a while back and I was part of a forum regarding them and the people there were only concerned about how many street races they won. Never a care about helping another person out or building a nice motor. This is the first forum I have been to where people actually care about helping other people out. I think Pyro said it in another thread here but thank God for this forum!
But if either of you don't want to send out the tool, I think it should be fairly simple to aquire the parts around town and get one built for the removal. I just need a 5/16"x24 left hand tread rod, and a piece to go over the piniongear with a 5/16" nut welded in the middle of it.
Biggest thing that has been reassuring is that everyone here has said I should be able to do it with the motor intact. Thats really good news for me.
Thanks again everyone.
I appreciate you and PG willing to send me the tools, and if either of you are willing I will pay you shipping and a few extra bucks for your trouble, and I will have that tool back to either of you very quickly. This is by far the best automotive forum I have ever been on, and I have been quite a few. I used to work on customizing Chevy S-10's a while back and I was part of a forum regarding them and the people there were only concerned about how many street races they won. Never a care about helping another person out or building a nice motor. This is the first forum I have been to where people actually care about helping other people out. I think Pyro said it in another thread here but thank God for this forum!
But if either of you don't want to send out the tool, I think it should be fairly simple to aquire the parts around town and get one built for the removal. I just need a 5/16"x24 left hand tread rod, and a piece to go over the piniongear with a 5/16" nut welded in the middle of it.
Biggest thing that has been reassuring is that everyone here has said I should be able to do it with the motor intact. Thats really good news for me.
Thanks again everyone.