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One thing I think most do not understand is that Electric vehicles are backwards, from it's typical gas counterpart. Highway mileage gets better on a gas vehicle but Decreases on a Electric vehicle. So when you read as much as 110 miles combine Urban cycle, that will translate to Less miles on the highway. My guess would be that the Livewire doesn't go 70 miles on the highway.
That's probably a very accurate estimate.
Assuming, of course, that Harley's statement of 110 mile range in combined riding isn't just flagrant "marketing."
Assuming, of course, that Harley's statement of 110 mile range in combined riding isn't just flagrant "marketing."
I read a report that Harley has already given the Livewire a 70 mile range for highway use. Then you'll need a high voltage "FAST" charger for 50 mins to get an 80% charge. That's already obsolete technology and 2.5X the price of the new Zero motorcycle to launch in March. Livewire has a 92 mph top speed, 110 mile range and costs $30,000 compared to the Zero bike with a 150 mph top speed, 150 mile range and costs $13,000.
Let's see.... Harley marketing obsolete technology for 2.5x as much as the competition. I wonder where they got that marketing strategy from??
I think they should've gone more like a Boss Hoss style, giant battery, with a softail frame, over 200 mile range. At least then it'd look more like a Harley, and warrant the $30k price.
I have a rough theory about the LiveWires launch and pricing:
1. Harley-Davidsons market research likely indicates that while potential customers are warm to an electric motorcycle in theory, technological limitations of range and charging time, and the currently primitive charging infrastructure, make them unlikely to pull the trigger on any electric motorcycle in practice, at _any_ plausible price. (Zeros sales, last reported in the very low four digits annually, would seem to bear this out.)
2. However, the MoCo has concluded that there is a lot of _goodwill_ to be gained by being _in_ the electric motorcycle market, now, with a real, for-sale bike and not merely a concept showbike (from the environmentally-conscious; from millennial and Gen Z prospective riders who like the idea, if not the practicality, of an electric motorcycle), but not a lot of _profit_ to be gained from trying to move large numbers of electric motorcycles. At the margin, LiveWires goodwill may be transferred ("halo effect") to its internal-combustion bikes. Buyers who want an electric but find them still too impractical, may be willing to give H-D a look for an internal-combustion bike because unlike the other manufacturers of internal-combustion bikes H-D is actually trying to bring about the environmentally-conscious, electric-bike future and putting their money where their mouth is.
3. In these circumstances, the MoCo has concluded that the best way to use the LiveWire launch is to establish a market _position_ at the top end of what they see as a still-nascent market, rather than to try to compete for market _share_ in a market that is still too small to sustain a viable business. (Remember, Zero is still operating on venture capital. It likely isnt _yet_ turning much, if any, profit.)
4. This market positioning has the added competitive advantage of disrupting Zeros market positioning and narrative. In press accounts, Zero is presented as the Tesla of electric motorcycles. As this Matt Laidlaw video indicates (https://youtu.be/TkSARmOrp-I), however, Harley-Davidson has built a bike to the level of fit and finish (and price) to _be_ the Tesla of electric motorcycles. Zero is now the budget alternative to the Tesla of electric motorcycles, not the Tesla itself. This positioning also establishes LiveWire as the aspirational electric motorcycle, much as Harley-Davidson cruisers and baggers are the aspirational models in their classes.
5. By pricing LiveWire so high relative to the hopes of the online commentariat, Harley-Davidson has captured virtually all of the mindshare surrounding electric motorcycles. Ask people at random after this week to name an electric motorcycle. If they can name one at all, it is likely to be LiveWire. The only people who will name Zero (or another, even more obscure brand) are electric motorcycle geeks and motorcycle industry cognoscenti. The online furor over the price today is a long-term public relations coup for the MoCo.
6. If the above is correct, Harley-Davidson is likely building relatively few LiveWires for release in 2019, and is hoping this unannounced number of $29,799 LiveWires will sellout to early adopters in the currently-underway preorder. Stage-managed correctly, that sellout could be used to suggest that the electric motorcycle has arrived and thereby kick-start the market into post-nascence and (once the technology and infrastructure improve to make electric bikes viable alternatives to a main, internal-combustion bike) profitability.
Of course, whether this will all work to the MoCos ultimate advantage is another question.
Originally Posted by FatBob2018
Yep.
Meanwhile, they put some money into Alta to presumably develop the low-cost, Millennial-appealing entry level models that have a chance of selling in quantity. And they're developing electric bicycles too. The Alta thing didn't work out in the end, but even so, it points towards what the strategy likely was.
The LiveWire was never intended for the bagger rider, the touring bike buyer, or the cash strapped. There will be other models for that. The LiveWire is, IMO, an elite, expensive, exclusive rich man's toy for those who value being unique, exclusive, and first.
It is probably their attempt at a "Halo" product, and like you said, it makes the Zero models look like 250-cc two-stroke Enduros by comparison.
At least, that seems to me like what they intend. Whether the product actually delivers on that promise remains to be seen.
when you look at it from your point of view. sounds like it is more of a fact than a theory . I have to say I like this theory . sounds legit
I believe those are the specs for the just announced new model from Lightning, not Zero. Zero is announcing their newest model in late February.
Thanks for the correction. Should has said Lightning electric motorcycle. But worth noting that Zero already sells a similar speced electric motorcycle to Lightning but costs $20k. Still $10k less han the Livewire.
Electric bikes and self driving cars are probably the future, however this all goes against my grain, (might actually give me one if i think about it too much)
I don't want to be in the stealth mode on a bike, probably an age/generational thing.
Electric bikes and self driving cars are probably the future, however this all goes against my grain, (might actually give me one if i think about it too much)
I don't want to be in the stealth mode on a bike, probably an age/generational thing.
Yep....stealth mode on a motorcycle usually ends up badly for the motorcycle rider!
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Slideshow: The bar-and-shield logo shows up on far more than motorcycles, some of the company's most unexpected products have nothing to do with riding.
Slideshow: From the troubled AMF years to modern misfires, these bikes earned reputations for reliability issues, questionable engineering, or disappointing performance.
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Slideshow: The Swiss custom shop has taken a Harley Softail and stretched it into something so long and low that it looks closer to a rolling sculpture than a conventional motorcycle.
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Slideshow: A standard cruiser becomes an intricate metal canvas in the hands of a Swiss custom house known for pushing Harley-Davidson platforms far beyond their factory brief.
Slideshow: Harley-Davidson's challenges aren't abstract; they show up in dropping shipments, shrinking dealer traffic, and strategic decisions that aren't yet translating into growth.
