LiveWire LiveWire Price
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,878
Likes: 164
From: Northern California
Telling of what? When Harley owns something like 90% of the big touring bike market, what else could people be trading from?
Where is the other poll, the one where Gold Wing owners traded to Harley? And to be relevant, that poll should be conducted in a year where everything changed, like 2014 when the Gold Wing was unchanged but Harley revamped the Rushmore bikes...
Anyone can derive any trend they want by choosing small-sample polls. But the fact is that while sales for everyone are declining, Harley maintains an approximately 50% market share among >600 cc bikes. And since they don't have sport bikes at all, and the other manufacturers rely heavily on sport bike sales, what that really means is Harley's share of the heavyweight touring market is dramatically higher than 50%. That hasn't changed.
Here's another reference point for you: I was in a major Honda dealer yesterday, and every Gold Wing they had was marked down $3,000 to $4,000 off MSRP. I looked on Cycle Trader at the K1600B, found a brand new one in Austin for $14,000 and change. Sales of everything are down. But when you only sell something like 300 K1600 touring bikes a year in America like BMW, it's not all that hard to show a big % increase year over year when you introduce two new models. If they only sold 200 K1600B and Grand America models in all of 2018 (and managed to continue selling the existing 300 K1600GT and GTLs) then yeah, BMW could claim a 60% increase in their share of big touring bike sales. But it would still be nothing more than a popped pimple on the *** of Harley's sales.
When there is actually an identifiable market share shift, we will all know it, it will be front page news on every motorcycle site.
(Not knocking the gold Wing or K1600 either; if I was buying a big touring bike today it would be one of those, especially with the discounts available today!)
Where is the other poll, the one where Gold Wing owners traded to Harley? And to be relevant, that poll should be conducted in a year where everything changed, like 2014 when the Gold Wing was unchanged but Harley revamped the Rushmore bikes...
Anyone can derive any trend they want by choosing small-sample polls. But the fact is that while sales for everyone are declining, Harley maintains an approximately 50% market share among >600 cc bikes. And since they don't have sport bikes at all, and the other manufacturers rely heavily on sport bike sales, what that really means is Harley's share of the heavyweight touring market is dramatically higher than 50%. That hasn't changed.
Here's another reference point for you: I was in a major Honda dealer yesterday, and every Gold Wing they had was marked down $3,000 to $4,000 off MSRP. I looked on Cycle Trader at the K1600B, found a brand new one in Austin for $14,000 and change. Sales of everything are down. But when you only sell something like 300 K1600 touring bikes a year in America like BMW, it's not all that hard to show a big % increase year over year when you introduce two new models. If they only sold 200 K1600B and Grand America models in all of 2018 (and managed to continue selling the existing 300 K1600GT and GTLs) then yeah, BMW could claim a 60% increase in their share of big touring bike sales. But it would still be nothing more than a popped pimple on the *** of Harley's sales.
When there is actually an identifiable market share shift, we will all know it, it will be front page news on every motorcycle site.
(Not knocking the gold Wing or K1600 either; if I was buying a big touring bike today it would be one of those, especially with the discounts available today!)
don't know where you get your facts from but, they are way off.
BMW is selling thousands not hundreds. There company goal for 2020 is to hit 200,000 motorcycles sold world wide. America is one of their fastest growing markets.
as i said, not knocking Harley, they are very cool bikes. Just saying the world is changing. Heck, there are some 1 percent riders that have purchased the BMW K1600B Bagger.
Enough said
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 4,251
Likes: 3,134
From: Texas
Read the sales reports. In 2016, BMW's US sales FELL 13%. For 2017 they don't even list USA sales separately. Clearly because they fell again. BMW was very happy to point out huge gains in France (+24%), Italy (+17%), Spain (+17.6%), the UK (+8.7%), Germany (+7.1%), and double digits growth in China and Japan. But curiously, they left the US performance out of their latest report.
The R series accounts for over 53% of their units sold, the S bikes do another 25% or so. There are very few K bikes sold. According to BMW's own numbers, all four K bikes combined accounted for 4% of their overall units sold worldwide.
In prior years BMW has sold about 10% in the USA, and 90% outside the USA. In 2017 they sold a grand total of 6700-ish K1600s worldwide. That would imply somewhere around 670 in the USA. Or about how many Harley touring bikes are sold each weekend.
For the 2018 model year BMW shipped around 11,000 of it's low-cost G310 bikes. The introduction of the little 310cc models accounts for about half all their unit sales increases, and the # of 310s is also about the same # of bikes as all their product lines combined sold in the USA.
Which all points to BMW having a tiny, miniscule market share in Harley's market segment. They're just not a serious competitor in the big touring bike market. Their sales are boxer twin adventure bikes, sport bikes, and little G310 models.
That's what BMW themselves report.
They haven't reported calendar year 2018 results yet, that will probably happen in the next couple of weeks so we might get a more current picture then.
The R series accounts for over 53% of their units sold, the S bikes do another 25% or so. There are very few K bikes sold. According to BMW's own numbers, all four K bikes combined accounted for 4% of their overall units sold worldwide.
In prior years BMW has sold about 10% in the USA, and 90% outside the USA. In 2017 they sold a grand total of 6700-ish K1600s worldwide. That would imply somewhere around 670 in the USA. Or about how many Harley touring bikes are sold each weekend.
For the 2018 model year BMW shipped around 11,000 of it's low-cost G310 bikes. The introduction of the little 310cc models accounts for about half all their unit sales increases, and the # of 310s is also about the same # of bikes as all their product lines combined sold in the USA.
Which all points to BMW having a tiny, miniscule market share in Harley's market segment. They're just not a serious competitor in the big touring bike market. Their sales are boxer twin adventure bikes, sport bikes, and little G310 models.
That's what BMW themselves report.
They haven't reported calendar year 2018 results yet, that will probably happen in the next couple of weeks so we might get a more current picture then.
Last edited by FatBob2018; Jan 14, 2019 at 12:33 AM.
Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
Read the sales reports. In 2016, BMW's US sales FELL 13%. For 2017 they don't even list USA sales separately. Clearly because they fell again. BMW was very happy to point out huge gains in France (+24%), Italy (+17%), Spain (+17.6%), the UK (+8.7%), Germany (+7.1%), and double digits growth in China and Japan. But curiously, they left the US performance out of their latest report.
The R series accounts for over 53% of their units sold, the S bikes do another 25% or so. There are very few K bikes sold. According to BMW's own numbers, all four K bikes combined accounted for 4% of their overall units sold worldwide.
In prior years BMW has sold about 10% in the USA, and 90% outside the USA. In 2017 they sold a grand total of 6700-ish K1600s worldwide. That would imply somewhere around 670 in the USA. Or about how many Harley touring bikes are sold each weekend.
For the 2018 model year BMW shipped around 11,000 of it's low-cost G310 bikes. The introduction of the little 310cc models accounts for about half all their unit sales increases, and the # of 310s is also about the same # of bikes as all their product lines combined sold in the USA.
Which all points to BMW having a tiny, miniscule market share in Harley's market segment. They're just not a serious competitor in the big touring bike market. Their sales are boxer twin adventure bikes, sport bikes, and little G310 models.
That's what BMW themselves report.
They haven't reported calendar year 2018 results yet, that will probably happen in the next couple of weeks so we might get a more current picture then.
The R series accounts for over 53% of their units sold, the S bikes do another 25% or so. There are very few K bikes sold. According to BMW's own numbers, all four K bikes combined accounted for 4% of their overall units sold worldwide.
In prior years BMW has sold about 10% in the USA, and 90% outside the USA. In 2017 they sold a grand total of 6700-ish K1600s worldwide. That would imply somewhere around 670 in the USA. Or about how many Harley touring bikes are sold each weekend.
For the 2018 model year BMW shipped around 11,000 of it's low-cost G310 bikes. The introduction of the little 310cc models accounts for about half all their unit sales increases, and the # of 310s is also about the same # of bikes as all their product lines combined sold in the USA.
Which all points to BMW having a tiny, miniscule market share in Harley's market segment. They're just not a serious competitor in the big touring bike market. Their sales are boxer twin adventure bikes, sport bikes, and little G310 models.
That's what BMW themselves report.
They haven't reported calendar year 2018 results yet, that will probably happen in the next couple of weeks so we might get a more current picture then.
BMW Motorcycle sales: 164,000 worldwide in 2017, up 13.2% over 2016 (record increase), 7th year in a row of BMW motorcycle sales INCREASES
HD Motorcycle sales: 240,000 worldwide in 2017, down 7.5% over 2016, 4th year in a row of HD sales DECREASES. Barron's just released a report that HD sales "have fallen off a cliff" for 2018 with a decline of 13.5% over 2017.
As a motorcycle company, I'd much rather be in BMW's shoes than Harley's.
I'm afraid to say but if HD flops with Livewire (as I expect) and does not improve quality and innovation of their mainstream bikes, they will soon join the ranks of dead or dying American Icons that simply did not innovate to meet the needs of their customers like GE, Kodak, JCPenney, Sears, Xerox, Blockbuster, PanAm, RadioShack, Polaroid and ToyRUs. All of which were American Icon companies that were viewed as "impossible to die" just a few years before the last shovel of dirt was thrown on their grave.
Last edited by Heatwave; Jan 17, 2019 at 10:19 AM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,643
Likes: 677
From: Arm pit of America, S.D.
What about middle America ? Here I'd just make it to the closest dealer , Never mind there dinner and back home 
, Will they offer a trailer pkg to carry extra on demand power ? A nd how much will the weight of a passenger decrease the range?
Yes I like the idea , But I'll have to pass
, Will they offer a trailer pkg to carry extra on demand power ? A nd how much will the weight of a passenger decrease the range?Yes I like the idea , But I'll have to pass
Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 11,469
Likes: 3,572
From: Idaho
from their financial reports:
bmw motorcycle sales: 164,000 worldwide in 2017, up 13.2% over 2016 (record increase), 7th year in a row of bmw motorcycle sales increases
hd motorcycle sales: 240,000 worldwide in 2017, down 7.5% over 2016, 4th year in a row of hd sales decreases. Barron's just released a report that hd sales "have fallen off a cliff" for 2018 with a decline of 13.5% over 2017.
bmw motorcycle sales: 164,000 worldwide in 2017, up 13.2% over 2016 (record increase), 7th year in a row of bmw motorcycle sales increases
hd motorcycle sales: 240,000 worldwide in 2017, down 7.5% over 2016, 4th year in a row of hd sales decreases. Barron's just released a report that hd sales "have fallen off a cliff" for 2018 with a decline of 13.5% over 2017.
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,882
Likes: 1,215
From: Fort Myers, Fl
FWIW, I dont know who their target is but the dealership here in Fort Myers is saying theyre going to be a Livewire dealer. Its on their website now.
I want to ride one, but Im not trading my bike in for one.
I want to ride one, but Im not trading my bike in for one.
Tourer
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 362
Likes: 76
From: Minnesota
The bike is for millennials. The price tag is for the standard Harley rider.
It's not a bike for the standard Harley rider nor is it priced to attract millennials so who the hell is going to buy it?
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Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 4,607
Likes: 3,312
From: Virginia
What about middle America ? Here I'd just make it to the closest dealer , Never mind there dinner and back home , Will they offer a trailer pkg to carry extra on demand power ? A nd how much will the weight of a passenger decrease the range?
Yes I like the idea , But I'll have to pass
, Will they offer a trailer pkg to carry extra on demand power ? A nd how much will the weight of a passenger decrease the range?Yes I like the idea , But I'll have to pass
Interesting concept with the trailer, but I think a generator in the trailer would be better.
Weight of a passenger most certainly will reduce range, but the biggest range reducer is speed (air resistance) and hard acceleration.
HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,488
Likes: 4,776
One thing I think most do not understand is that Electric vehicles are backwards, from it's typical gas counterpart. Highway mileage gets better on a gas vehicle but Decreases on a Electric vehicle. So when you read as much as 110 miles combine Urban cycle, that will translate to Less miles on the highway. My guess would be that the Livewire doesn't go 70 miles on the highway.