Runaway Starter!
5th Gear
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: South Central KY
Oh, everytime the battery has been tested its shown to be good.
And a little insight on my abilities, I know some mechanical stuff but electrical is usually beyond me. I'm guessing electrical is the problem so anything in laymens terms would be helpful.lol
Thanks,
Eric
And a little insight on my abilities, I know some mechanical stuff but electrical is usually beyond me. I'm guessing electrical is the problem so anything in laymens terms would be helpful.lol
Thanks,
Eric
Tourer
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 265
Likes: 10
From: Northern Wisconsin
Eric, a very common problem with the XL line that would explain your current problem, the negative cable that runs down to the rear engine mount, the cable would break strand by strand inside the shrink wrap covering the crimped lug. I'll bet if you disconnect the ground cable from the battery and give it a tug, it'll come right off in your hand.
As for the cranking runon issue, that's typical of a starter relay with water intrusion.
(especially soapy water)
Wash it a little less agressively for now on.
Hogdoctor
As for the cranking runon issue, that's typical of a starter relay with water intrusion.
(especially soapy water)
Wash it a little less agressively for now on.
Hogdoctor
Tourer
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 265
Likes: 10
From: Northern Wisconsin
Vetto writes: actually I = V / R
so as voltage drops so does current for the same resistance
that is true for most resistive loads, but when you're dealing with an electric motor, you don't have 'resistance'... you have 'inductive reactance'... basically, the faster the motor spins, the more is 'resists' the flow of current. When the motor bogs down, it allows more current flow, thus you get damaging levels of current running through the system caused by the weak voltage thus weak motor torque being unable to get the engine rolling fast enough to start.
common causes for starter run on... Primary cover misalignment making for the jackshaft gear fitting too tightly to the ring gear.... usually corrected by loosening the primary cover, pull it up and to the rear while tightening it down.
The reason it continues to crank, is because there is a pushrod in the solenoid that lifts the contact disc to open the connection to stop it... this pushrod gets pushed by the solenoid plunger which is connected to the bendix which is jammed in the ring gear... until is pops back away from the ring gear, the battery will stay connected to the starter motor.
If you're running the little bosch square relay, if they get any water in them, it will crank non-stop. Supposedly the HD version with the Yellow base has a diode in them that keeps this from happening.
Update the thread if you've not resolved this by now.
Hogdoctor
so as voltage drops so does current for the same resistance
that is true for most resistive loads, but when you're dealing with an electric motor, you don't have 'resistance'... you have 'inductive reactance'... basically, the faster the motor spins, the more is 'resists' the flow of current. When the motor bogs down, it allows more current flow, thus you get damaging levels of current running through the system caused by the weak voltage thus weak motor torque being unable to get the engine rolling fast enough to start.
common causes for starter run on... Primary cover misalignment making for the jackshaft gear fitting too tightly to the ring gear.... usually corrected by loosening the primary cover, pull it up and to the rear while tightening it down.
The reason it continues to crank, is because there is a pushrod in the solenoid that lifts the contact disc to open the connection to stop it... this pushrod gets pushed by the solenoid plunger which is connected to the bendix which is jammed in the ring gear... until is pops back away from the ring gear, the battery will stay connected to the starter motor.
If you're running the little bosch square relay, if they get any water in them, it will crank non-stop. Supposedly the HD version with the Yellow base has a diode in them that keeps this from happening.
Update the thread if you've not resolved this by now.
Hogdoctor
Tourer
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 265
Likes: 10
From: Northern Wisconsin
one more thing I'd like to explain that might shed light on your resistance checks through the solenoid... Inside that solenoid are *two* sets of windings.
One is the 'pull in' coil and the other is the 'hold in' coil. The hold in coil connects from the small side terminal to ground, like you might expect.. but it is not strong enough to pull the bendix into engagement on it's own. The 'pull in' coil connects between the small side terminal and the solenoid output terminal to the starter. When you first hit the crank button, power flows through both coils and they engage the starter.. once
the disc makes contact and power heads to the motor to crank, the pull in coil drops out (same voltage on both ends of the winding) but the hold in stays energized until you release the crank button.
So, if you're bench testing a solenoid with an ohmmeter, it's normal to see some continuity between the small side terminal and the starter side lug.
ps .. if you ever hear (and it's rare) a jackhammering sound when trying to start a bike, the hold in coil has failed but the pull in coil is still working.
Hogdoctor
One is the 'pull in' coil and the other is the 'hold in' coil. The hold in coil connects from the small side terminal to ground, like you might expect.. but it is not strong enough to pull the bendix into engagement on it's own. The 'pull in' coil connects between the small side terminal and the solenoid output terminal to the starter. When you first hit the crank button, power flows through both coils and they engage the starter.. once
the disc makes contact and power heads to the motor to crank, the pull in coil drops out (same voltage on both ends of the winding) but the hold in stays energized until you release the crank button.
So, if you're bench testing a solenoid with an ohmmeter, it's normal to see some continuity between the small side terminal and the starter side lug.
ps .. if you ever hear (and it's rare) a jackhammering sound when trying to start a bike, the hold in coil has failed but the pull in coil is still working.
Hogdoctor
Thread Starter
|
Cruiser
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 202
Likes: 1
From: S.E. Connecticut
After I got the solenoid to release (by pulling the clutch a few times) I put it all back together and tried to start it again...same thing happened. Solenoid got stuck.
I am getting a new battery (odyssey), new starter relay, and am going to pull the solenoid apart to check it out. It looks like an Accel solenoid.
UPDATE: just looked at it again from directly above and the solenoid is not square longitudinally with the primary. It looks like the bolts that connect it to the primary are pulling that side in...there are no spacers between the bracket and the primary case. Should it be perfectly square to the case?
I am getting a new battery (odyssey), new starter relay, and am going to pull the solenoid apart to check it out. It looks like an Accel solenoid.
UPDATE: just looked at it again from directly above and the solenoid is not square longitudinally with the primary. It looks like the bolts that connect it to the primary are pulling that side in...there are no spacers between the bracket and the primary case. Should it be perfectly square to the case?
Road Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 953
Likes: 8
From: Central Oregon
After I got the solenoid to release (by pulling the clutch a few times) I put it all back together and tried to start it again...same thing happened. Solenoid got stuck.
I am getting a new battery (odyssey), new starter relay, and am going to pull the solenoid apart to check it out. It looks like an Accel solenoid.
UPDATE: just looked at it again from directly above and the solenoid is not square longitudinally with the primary. It looks like the bolts that connect it to the primary are pulling that side in...there are no spacers between the bracket and the primary case. Should it be perfectly square to the case?
I am getting a new battery (odyssey), new starter relay, and am going to pull the solenoid apart to check it out. It looks like an Accel solenoid.
UPDATE: just looked at it again from directly above and the solenoid is not square longitudinally with the primary. It looks like the bolts that connect it to the primary are pulling that side in...there are no spacers between the bracket and the primary case. Should it be perfectly square to the case?
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 64
From: SoCal
Yeah vetto, it should be aligned as well as possible. I don't think it's hyper-critical because the piston on the linkage pivots on it's shaft in there. The real concern with that is to get a good seal. With my sealed primary (separated from the engine oil system like you did) I have to use silicon sealer on the foam seal to keep the ATF inside from weeping out.
Don't try to bend it installed on the inner primary, you won't get much movement and may damage the bolts, case or solenoid itself. You'll probably have more luck using a vice to hold the bracket while you bend it. You will then want to have a new seal for it (buy two or three to keep handy).
Handy tip, if you are having trouble keeping that spacer in place, use some tape to hold it on the solenoid while you get the bolts started. You can't see the tape when it is installed.
Don't try to bend it installed on the inner primary, you won't get much movement and may damage the bolts, case or solenoid itself. You'll probably have more luck using a vice to hold the bracket while you bend it. You will then want to have a new seal for it (buy two or three to keep handy).
Handy tip, if you are having trouble keeping that spacer in place, use some tape to hold it on the solenoid while you get the bolts started. You can't see the tape when it is installed.
Last edited by megawatt; Sep 21, 2008 at 10:59 AM.
Road Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 953
Likes: 8
From: Central Oregon
When I was runnig all that stuff I installed two 1/4 in studs which made it MUCH easier to hold the spacer and solenoid in alignment and also I stuffed a rag in beteen the primary and engine area for when I dropped any fastners, as we all know what a pain it is to fish out dropped parts from that area 
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Verdad Gallardo
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026
Verdad Gallardo
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 64
From: SoCal
Ha! You ain't wrong Rodney!
All the glop that collects back in there likes to grab whatever drops in so it doesn't just fall through.
Studs are a good idea! I use socket cap screws; they stay on the hex key fairly well as I guide them in place.
All the glop that collects back in there likes to grab whatever drops in so it doesn't just fall through.
Studs are a good idea! I use socket cap screws; they stay on the hex key fairly well as I guide them in place.