67 numbers
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,481
Likes: 3,677
From: Santa Klaus County, Cali
see www.vintageamericanmotorcycles.com scroll down to case numbers page 6
Free site owned and operated by Chris Haynes...long time AMCA member with a ton of knowledge
Also suggest you log into www.caimag.com introduce yourself and then post same question. Honest and blunt feedback.
Free site owned and operated by Chris Haynes...long time AMCA member with a ton of knowledge
Also suggest you log into www.caimag.com introduce yourself and then post same question. Honest and blunt feedback.
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: midwest
67 numbers
Thanks, 1st place I went was Chris's site, and confused myself. Seems 2 different 6's were used??
I added a picture of the belly numbers. When I say I want to move up to a shovel, I bought a new early 78 low rider, got stoled in 83, instead of replacing it, I got the vintage bug, ( a better fit with new wife, babies and a house) . Well all I got left is a few 45s, and that's not something I want to ride across the state, or the highway for that matter. I always wanted to replace that bike, and liked the look of a flat side shovel, so hear I am.
thanks to all
Rudy
I added a picture of the belly numbers. When I say I want to move up to a shovel, I bought a new early 78 low rider, got stoled in 83, instead of replacing it, I got the vintage bug, ( a better fit with new wife, babies and a house) . Well all I got left is a few 45s, and that's not something I want to ride across the state, or the highway for that matter. I always wanted to replace that bike, and liked the look of a flat side shovel, so hear I am.
thanks to all
Rudy
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,481
Likes: 3,677
From: Santa Klaus County, Cali
Afirmative on the 2 different 6s being used. I think your numbers are good but I am no definitive expert. You migh think about logging on over at www.caimag.com do a quick intro and post the numbers. Guys there have far more expertise than I.
Good luck...and if you get it post some pics please.
Good luck...and if you get it post some pics please.
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 188
Likes: 17
From: SE Pa.
I'm curious about those vin #'s, from the pic they look like their raised letters and numbers.They shouldn't be, they should be stamped in the case.
Last edited by LilRosie; Aug 31, 2013 at 04:46 PM.
Road Master
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 39
From: NW Florida
The numbers look good to me. The number guy sometimes inverted the 9 to make a 6 on the vin. The numbers on the belly were done at a different time than the vin so they may have been done with a different set of stamps. They look good to me. Harley used several types of stamps over the years, closed 4's, open 4's, straight back 9's curved 9's and the same for the 6's. The thing to look for is any sign of grinding or welding in the number area.
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Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 692
Likes: 390
From: Western Australia
When the pictures of that engine appeared on the CAImag forum in August I saw problems with some of the stampings. Below is my August post from the CAImag thread and also the photo I posted there for comparison.
Eric
The sequence portion of the serial number (SN) complies with the 196069 even-odd code, assuming the amount of hidden characters is either one or two. More than two hidden characters would be a problem for obvious reasons. Because the engine is stamped FL there may be a 7 stamped on top of each case half near the rear engine mounting bolt holes. Hs in that location would indicate the engine was originally an FLH.
Some SN characters are not consistent with examples I have that appear factory-stamped and I posted a photo below for comparison:
Notice in my photo the back of the 7 is fully curved instead of the curve appearing to begin a short distance from the top.
Notice my 1 has its top serif horizontal, not at forty-five degrees. (The change seems to have occurred part of the way through the 1966 model year.)
Notice in my photo the 3 is a certain round-top style, not a flat-top. (The change seems to have occurred part of the way through the 1966 model year. I dont know if the 3 changed at exactly the same time as the 1.)
Belly numbers (BNs):
Notice the 1 in the left BN has a serif at the base whereas I would expect it to have no serif there. Notice the 1 in the left BN looks the same style as the 1 in the SN. Has the 1 in the right-hand BN got a serif at the base? Hard to say from that photo.
Hard to say about the first 7 in the right-hand BN but the second 7 appears okay. And that second 7 appears different to both 7s in the left BN. A clearer photo may show the 7s in the left BN are the same style as the 7 in the SN and I dont think that would be good.
Notice the 4 in the left BN appears to have an open top. However, the 4 in the right-hand BN appears to have an open back and that is what Id expect.
Are there good reasons for the things that seem to be unusual in the SN and the left BN? Maybe yes, maybe no. But my advice is not to buy the bike.
And while we're on 1967, although the year portion of most 67 Shovel SNs features the type of straight-back 6 shown in my photo, I have eleven 1967 Shovel SNs with a certain type of round-back 6 in the year portion and they appear the same as each other. Also their accompanying 7s appear the same as each other. All eleven examples are in either the 1000 block, the 3000 block or the 5000 block and all their number bosses appear unaltered. Often a round-back 6 in certain circumstances indicates non-factory but the eleven round-backs I have so far for 1967 may turn out to be okay and it's something I continue to research.'
Eric
The sequence portion of the serial number (SN) complies with the 196069 even-odd code, assuming the amount of hidden characters is either one or two. More than two hidden characters would be a problem for obvious reasons. Because the engine is stamped FL there may be a 7 stamped on top of each case half near the rear engine mounting bolt holes. Hs in that location would indicate the engine was originally an FLH.
Some SN characters are not consistent with examples I have that appear factory-stamped and I posted a photo below for comparison:
Notice in my photo the back of the 7 is fully curved instead of the curve appearing to begin a short distance from the top.
Notice my 1 has its top serif horizontal, not at forty-five degrees. (The change seems to have occurred part of the way through the 1966 model year.)
Notice in my photo the 3 is a certain round-top style, not a flat-top. (The change seems to have occurred part of the way through the 1966 model year. I dont know if the 3 changed at exactly the same time as the 1.)
Belly numbers (BNs):
Notice the 1 in the left BN has a serif at the base whereas I would expect it to have no serif there. Notice the 1 in the left BN looks the same style as the 1 in the SN. Has the 1 in the right-hand BN got a serif at the base? Hard to say from that photo.
Hard to say about the first 7 in the right-hand BN but the second 7 appears okay. And that second 7 appears different to both 7s in the left BN. A clearer photo may show the 7s in the left BN are the same style as the 7 in the SN and I dont think that would be good.
Notice the 4 in the left BN appears to have an open top. However, the 4 in the right-hand BN appears to have an open back and that is what Id expect.
Are there good reasons for the things that seem to be unusual in the SN and the left BN? Maybe yes, maybe no. But my advice is not to buy the bike.
And while we're on 1967, although the year portion of most 67 Shovel SNs features the type of straight-back 6 shown in my photo, I have eleven 1967 Shovel SNs with a certain type of round-back 6 in the year portion and they appear the same as each other. Also their accompanying 7s appear the same as each other. All eleven examples are in either the 1000 block, the 3000 block or the 5000 block and all their number bosses appear unaltered. Often a round-back 6 in certain circumstances indicates non-factory but the eleven round-backs I have so far for 1967 may turn out to be okay and it's something I continue to research.'
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Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 188
Likes: 17
From: SE Pa.
I think the most obvious is being over looked. That section of the case was built up with a lot of welding. Including the vin boss. The original vin stamping was totally destroyed, any latent prints are gone, impossible to determine what they were.
Was it because of damage to the case or to cover something up ?????????
Was it because of damage to the case or to cover something up ?????????
Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 692
Likes: 390
From: Western Australia
LilRosie, no offence meant but the possibility that the left case may have been built up to some extent isnt being overlooked.
On CAI there was mention of said possibility, with a member there posting the following comments: Why is the upper left side case built up with all that weld? Looks like the VIN was restamped after welding the cases.
The heading for the thread on CAI was numbers help please so it was similar to the 67 numbers heading here on this forum.
And the initial remark by the OP on CAI was as follows: anybody see a problem? Thinking of making a offer on the bike. thanks
My post on CAI and later here on this forum addressed the problems I see with the 67 numbers. And the difference in the outside of the left case was addressed by the second responder on CAI. The case difference is also visible when the OPs photo is compared to the one I posted.
In your first post you said the boss was recessed and that the letters and numbers look raised. But I dont think so. I think the boss is raised and I think the characters on it are stamped in the boss and not protruding above its surface. But I know what you mean because sometimes Ive seen photos where the effect is opposite to the reality and in those instances it's often the way the picture appears, or was taken. For example, a while back a photo of a 47FL SN appeared to show two bosses with one on top of the other to the extent that the left end of the lower boss was still visible. But everything was fine after the seller posted a better picture.
Eric
On CAI there was mention of said possibility, with a member there posting the following comments: Why is the upper left side case built up with all that weld? Looks like the VIN was restamped after welding the cases.
The heading for the thread on CAI was numbers help please so it was similar to the 67 numbers heading here on this forum.
And the initial remark by the OP on CAI was as follows: anybody see a problem? Thinking of making a offer on the bike. thanks
My post on CAI and later here on this forum addressed the problems I see with the 67 numbers. And the difference in the outside of the left case was addressed by the second responder on CAI. The case difference is also visible when the OPs photo is compared to the one I posted.
In your first post you said the boss was recessed and that the letters and numbers look raised. But I dont think so. I think the boss is raised and I think the characters on it are stamped in the boss and not protruding above its surface. But I know what you mean because sometimes Ive seen photos where the effect is opposite to the reality and in those instances it's often the way the picture appears, or was taken. For example, a while back a photo of a 47FL SN appeared to show two bosses with one on top of the other to the extent that the left end of the lower boss was still visible. But everything was fine after the seller posted a better picture.
Eric