Stupid ethanol!!!
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From: MASS_hole
By "dregs" I mean the chemical plant refines the raw product and takes out the parts that are not the chemical that they want. Those unwanted parts are "dregs". In the case of our gasoline, they are components that boil out of the stills, or distillation vessels, as heavy components around the boiling point of our gasoline. So, since they are unwanted, they pipe them out to the gasoline blending station area in the back of the refinery. They are very reactive when exposed to air, and form polymers when in contact with oxygen. Similar to the "gel" that forms in old diesel. But in the case of these chemicals, it does not stop at the gel stage, but goes on to a polymer very similar to the rubber that is of a similar color, that you see on the soles of some work boots.
I could give you all the chemical names, but this is already boring enough for this forum. I deal with these things daily, and have been working in the Ethylene and refining side of things for almost 45 years.
And, by the way, once that polymer is formed, it is not really very soluble in anything I can expect you to find. So the only fix is to disassemble and clean. A flush with some solvent is not going to help once it has formed up into beads like that.
Yes, and the ethanol has very little if anything to do with this fouling. But they are right, the ethanol has a slightly lower BTU content on burning in our cylinders than regular gasoline. But I would tell you, it is probably less than the 3 to 4 percent values I hear people talking about. It is hardly noticeable actually.
OK, sorry to get technical on this, but I do not know any other way to explain it.
I could give you all the chemical names, but this is already boring enough for this forum. I deal with these things daily, and have been working in the Ethylene and refining side of things for almost 45 years.
And, by the way, once that polymer is formed, it is not really very soluble in anything I can expect you to find. So the only fix is to disassemble and clean. A flush with some solvent is not going to help once it has formed up into beads like that.
Yes, and the ethanol has very little if anything to do with this fouling. But they are right, the ethanol has a slightly lower BTU content on burning in our cylinders than regular gasoline. But I would tell you, it is probably less than the 3 to 4 percent values I hear people talking about. It is hardly noticeable actually.
OK, sorry to get technical on this, but I do not know any other way to explain it.
I mean if it's a prevention designed in the manufacturing of ethanol, but not 100% effectively removed/ And so at times for some particular reason, WHAM!, there is is. A mess of dregs that accumulated for some obscure reason?
I hope I'm understanding how this separation of heavy compounds found in the corn that are not a usable compound necessary in the formulation to be added to natural fuel
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 270
Likes: 64
From: Camotes Islands, Cebu, Philippines
I am not being clear enough... I have that problem sometimes.
The Ethanol and the beads you see or smears of amber goo are two different unrelated issues. The goo will come from the re-use of dregs from refineries whether or not ethanol is in the mix. Ethanol FREE fuel will also make this goo, if left to sit and get 'stale' on you. This polymer mix is formed from the junk they mix into the gasoline stream in refineries.
Ethanol neither helps or harms in the case of the goo. Ethanol in the fuel stream allows the gasoline to absorb more water and hold it in solution. Fuel without Ethanol has a very low ability to absorb water, and so, when it gets water in it, the water forms a layer at the bottom of the tank. With enough ethanol in the gas, the water stays mixed evenly in the gas and does not form up in drops or layers in the bottom of the tank.
The issue with gas going old and making those amber residues or beads, can be prevented with the Sta-bil types of gas additives. These additives do stop the reaction that produces the goo and the beads. It is very effective and is also used in the industry in a different form and more pure, in very tiny amounts, to make it safe to ship the pure compounds that are still sometimes refined to a high concentration. That is put into rail cars and over the road trucks and sent out to plants that still make further use of these chemicals in the plastics industry.
There are both C4 compounds that do this, Butadiene is one, and C5 and C10 compounds. The C5 and C10 are the ones giving us the most issue.
Here is a link to the info on these... http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedL...romPage=GetDoc
This is from Dow, the company I worked at and helped start the Dicyclopentadiene unit down in Freeport Texas WAAAAYYYY to many years ago. In that, it discusses the inhibitor we used. TBC-4.
This stuff would snot up the world if left to itself in air. It is very difficult to control unless you keep an inhibitor in it. (similar to Sta-bil)
Sorry to go deep on you here, but there is not an easy way to describe this stuff. And with all the push for profits and efficiency in refining that barrel of crude, NOTHING gets thrown away. If they make a tank full of material that is not up to spec and cannot send it back to re-run, it finds a home in gasoline if it makes fire when lit. Sometimes they can use a lot of it, sometimes just a little. But the C10 part of that mix that ends up in fuel is there because it actually raises the octane number of the mix.... so they do like it. We hate it, but if you keep very fresh gas, never letting it sit, it would not matter.....
The Ethanol and the beads you see or smears of amber goo are two different unrelated issues. The goo will come from the re-use of dregs from refineries whether or not ethanol is in the mix. Ethanol FREE fuel will also make this goo, if left to sit and get 'stale' on you. This polymer mix is formed from the junk they mix into the gasoline stream in refineries.
Ethanol neither helps or harms in the case of the goo. Ethanol in the fuel stream allows the gasoline to absorb more water and hold it in solution. Fuel without Ethanol has a very low ability to absorb water, and so, when it gets water in it, the water forms a layer at the bottom of the tank. With enough ethanol in the gas, the water stays mixed evenly in the gas and does not form up in drops or layers in the bottom of the tank.
The issue with gas going old and making those amber residues or beads, can be prevented with the Sta-bil types of gas additives. These additives do stop the reaction that produces the goo and the beads. It is very effective and is also used in the industry in a different form and more pure, in very tiny amounts, to make it safe to ship the pure compounds that are still sometimes refined to a high concentration. That is put into rail cars and over the road trucks and sent out to plants that still make further use of these chemicals in the plastics industry.
There are both C4 compounds that do this, Butadiene is one, and C5 and C10 compounds. The C5 and C10 are the ones giving us the most issue.
Here is a link to the info on these... http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedL...romPage=GetDoc
This is from Dow, the company I worked at and helped start the Dicyclopentadiene unit down in Freeport Texas WAAAAYYYY to many years ago. In that, it discusses the inhibitor we used. TBC-4.
This stuff would snot up the world if left to itself in air. It is very difficult to control unless you keep an inhibitor in it. (similar to Sta-bil)
Sorry to go deep on you here, but there is not an easy way to describe this stuff. And with all the push for profits and efficiency in refining that barrel of crude, NOTHING gets thrown away. If they make a tank full of material that is not up to spec and cannot send it back to re-run, it finds a home in gasoline if it makes fire when lit. Sometimes they can use a lot of it, sometimes just a little. But the C10 part of that mix that ends up in fuel is there because it actually raises the octane number of the mix.... so they do like it. We hate it, but if you keep very fresh gas, never letting it sit, it would not matter.....
Last edited by Longplay; Aug 7, 2016 at 09:51 AM.
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Joined: Aug 2012
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From: Detroit
So the "Img" of those bead like particles should not occur, but can at times? And why?
I mean if it's a prevention designed in the manufacturing of ethanol, but not 100% effectively removed/ And so at times for some particular reason, WHAM!, there is is. A mess of dregs that accumulated for some obscure reason?
I hope I'm understanding how this separation of heavy compounds found in the corn that are not a usable compound necessary in the formulation to be added to natural fuel
I mean if it's a prevention designed in the manufacturing of ethanol, but not 100% effectively removed/ And so at times for some particular reason, WHAM!, there is is. A mess of dregs that accumulated for some obscure reason?
I hope I'm understanding how this separation of heavy compounds found in the corn that are not a usable compound necessary in the formulation to be added to natural fuel
Any time someone has a fuel system problem these days, ethanol tends to be the scapegoat. It's easier than trying to figure out what the real problem was.
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From: Detroit
Junking it would seem like overkill. 
I've been using two twenty-year-old Holley 850 carburetors, along with two old-style thirty-year-old Holley Blue fuel pumps, with E-10, on a big block Chevy for 20 years, without problems, and not even any hints of problems upon disassembly. I rejetted the carbs a little richer when I originally switched from race gas to E-10.
On an older carburetor, one might want to install a rebuild kit with more recent parts, as a precaution, and bump the jetting up about 5% while you're at it. However, I ran my stock '72 Corvette on E-10 for a number of years without problems.
Since flexible fuel hoses should probably be replaced about every 15-20 years anyway (not unlike radiator or coolant hoses), I'd probably replace them with alcohol-compatible hoses.
Initially, when switching from straight gas to E-10, the alcohol may dissolve some sludge and deposits remaining from the straight gasoline, so it's important to have a good fuel filter in place, and it may need to be replaced several times. It's not unlike what can happen when pouring fuel system cleaner into the tank of an older car, or putting detergent oil in a car which has never run on anything but non-detergent oil.
The sky still isn't falling.
I've been using two twenty-year-old Holley 850 carburetors, along with two old-style thirty-year-old Holley Blue fuel pumps, with E-10, on a big block Chevy for 20 years, without problems, and not even any hints of problems upon disassembly. I rejetted the carbs a little richer when I originally switched from race gas to E-10.
On an older carburetor, one might want to install a rebuild kit with more recent parts, as a precaution, and bump the jetting up about 5% while you're at it. However, I ran my stock '72 Corvette on E-10 for a number of years without problems.
Since flexible fuel hoses should probably be replaced about every 15-20 years anyway (not unlike radiator or coolant hoses), I'd probably replace them with alcohol-compatible hoses.
Initially, when switching from straight gas to E-10, the alcohol may dissolve some sludge and deposits remaining from the straight gasoline, so it's important to have a good fuel filter in place, and it may need to be replaced several times. It's not unlike what can happen when pouring fuel system cleaner into the tank of an older car, or putting detergent oil in a car which has never run on anything but non-detergent oil.
The sky still isn't falling.
Last edited by Warp Factor; Aug 7, 2016 at 11:22 AM.
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 270
Likes: 64
From: Camotes Islands, Cebu, Philippines
Warp Factor is correct here.
Ethanol is not likely the big issue. It does absorb water and pass it through our engines. But to be honest, it does little to no damage passing through. It could work on the valve SEALS, but not the seats. The seats are hardened steel and not going to be affected. But the seals are likely possible to swell with Ethanol or other components.
Our engines, many of them anyway, require premium or are very close on compression ratio such that they could require premium octane levels. Ethanol has a lower octane value when mixed in. So that is a small issue. The ECM systems can deal with that however so I do not worry so much about it. I rarely if ever need all the horsepower or torque these monsters put out!!!
My background is on smaller metric bikes, and am just now, for the past 3 weeks, riding a Harley. An 07 FXSTC, and love it. Stage1 in it and more heart in this bike than I could ever use. But I know I am a minority in this. And Ethanol may lower octane for folks.
Look at Octane boosters if it bothers you. They do work.
And for the frugal, tight wallet folks, if you want to boost octane cheaply, about 1/4 cup of K-1 Kerosene will do it!! Starts out around 140 octane level!!
Also for those that can get Aviation fuel, you can boost octane with a 1/4 cup of that as well. It also is around 125 to 135 octane.
I am going riding today.... My head is aching a bit from all this reaching back into the cobwebs of my past career!!!
Ethanol is not likely the big issue. It does absorb water and pass it through our engines. But to be honest, it does little to no damage passing through. It could work on the valve SEALS, but not the seats. The seats are hardened steel and not going to be affected. But the seals are likely possible to swell with Ethanol or other components.
Our engines, many of them anyway, require premium or are very close on compression ratio such that they could require premium octane levels. Ethanol has a lower octane value when mixed in. So that is a small issue. The ECM systems can deal with that however so I do not worry so much about it. I rarely if ever need all the horsepower or torque these monsters put out!!!
My background is on smaller metric bikes, and am just now, for the past 3 weeks, riding a Harley. An 07 FXSTC, and love it. Stage1 in it and more heart in this bike than I could ever use. But I know I am a minority in this. And Ethanol may lower octane for folks.
Look at Octane boosters if it bothers you. They do work.
And for the frugal, tight wallet folks, if you want to boost octane cheaply, about 1/4 cup of K-1 Kerosene will do it!! Starts out around 140 octane level!!
Also for those that can get Aviation fuel, you can boost octane with a 1/4 cup of that as well. It also is around 125 to 135 octane.
I am going riding today.... My head is aching a bit from all this reaching back into the cobwebs of my past career!!!
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,217
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From: Detroit
"Longplay", enjoy your Harley. I also come from the "metric" world (having first gone through British bikes and Harleys, before finally returning to Harleys), but the metric bikes I had were mostly insanely powerful sport bikes, the last one having a ten pound nitrous bottle strapped to the side.
Yup, I ran E-10 in that nitrous bike. Had E-85 been available at the time, I certainly would have made the conversions required to use it, since E-85 is now quite well recognized as the latest and greatest version of "race gas", and much more widely available than the older versions of race gas.
"Longplay" and I can try to help, but we probably can't have much influence on people who insist on digging in their heels, preferring to stay about 10-to-100 years behind the learning curve.
Yup, I ran E-10 in that nitrous bike. Had E-85 been available at the time, I certainly would have made the conversions required to use it, since E-85 is now quite well recognized as the latest and greatest version of "race gas", and much more widely available than the older versions of race gas.
"Longplay" and I can try to help, but we probably can't have much influence on people who insist on digging in their heels, preferring to stay about 10-to-100 years behind the learning curve.
Last edited by Warp Factor; Aug 7, 2016 at 12:08 PM.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,553
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From: Four Corners
As the OP, I admit I have been educated on ethanol fuel by your posts. But, the one point I must reiterate;
1) the fact that the MoCo has so many "non-serviceable" parts the just require a simple fix (in this case an o-ring) pisses me off!
And, correct me if I'm wrong, don't leave ethanol fuel sit for more than 30-60 days and if using ethanol free fuel, if it will sit for more than a couple months (i.e. winter storage) add Sta-bil.
Last edited by yzergod; Aug 7, 2016 at 08:11 PM.
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 270
Likes: 64
From: Camotes Islands, Cebu, Philippines
I think that covers it yzergod.
And you are right on the money about those "non-serviceable parts".
They would be non serviceable only if you were not talented enough to clean your own fingernails. Otherwise, get to a good gasket / O-Ring place and get you some Kal-Rez O-rings. Pretty much no matter what you put then against, they do NOT react, swell, distort or degrade. Not cheap, but not going to have to go in and replace them EVER....
For the curious.... Kalrez compatibility chart. About the only one I know that kills it in almost everything on the planet....
http://www.aceglass.com/html/3dissue...e/download.pdf
And you are right on the money about those "non-serviceable parts".
They would be non serviceable only if you were not talented enough to clean your own fingernails. Otherwise, get to a good gasket / O-Ring place and get you some Kal-Rez O-rings. Pretty much no matter what you put then against, they do NOT react, swell, distort or degrade. Not cheap, but not going to have to go in and replace them EVER....
For the curious.... Kalrez compatibility chart. About the only one I know that kills it in almost everything on the planet....
http://www.aceglass.com/html/3dissue...e/download.pdf
Last edited by Longplay; Aug 7, 2016 at 05:16 PM.
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