Fatbob 114 autotune
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
It did, sort of...
An "autotune" session ONLY tries to map the VE tables based on setting the whole table into closed-loop and then reading what the O2 sensors say. It does absolutely jack else, and then there is the question about are 1/ narrowband O2 sensors, and 2/ trying to do this on the street, good enough to get GOOD readings.
Anyway...
FP3 takes readings for VE cells in your tables and you are looking for them going green.
"Apply" updates the "autotune map in memory" with any Green learned values, clears the hits table, and keeps going with a new autotune session.
When you eventually hit finish, it applies any more learned values to the "autotune map in memory" and then asks you to save the overall result in one of your slots. This will automatically flashed to the bike as the currently loaded map.
The overall result includes any cells that were learned during any of your sessions. BUT!! ...if you only learned one cell one time then the result may not be accurate ...because of a whole pile of considerations discussed ad nauseam in the Tuning forum section.
So, it is possible that the process may learn/tune the same cell a few times (which is a good thing), but equally, may never tune some cells any times (now you see the problem).
Other tuners say to keep tuning until your CLI is within a few percent ...the FP3 can't tell you that so it becomes a bit more manual, and know what you are doing kind of thing. One of these days V&H may give the product the ability to capture logs ...that will be a good step forward.
An "autotune" session ONLY tries to map the VE tables based on setting the whole table into closed-loop and then reading what the O2 sensors say. It does absolutely jack else, and then there is the question about are 1/ narrowband O2 sensors, and 2/ trying to do this on the street, good enough to get GOOD readings.
Anyway...
FP3 takes readings for VE cells in your tables and you are looking for them going green.
"Apply" updates the "autotune map in memory" with any Green learned values, clears the hits table, and keeps going with a new autotune session.
When you eventually hit finish, it applies any more learned values to the "autotune map in memory" and then asks you to save the overall result in one of your slots. This will automatically flashed to the bike as the currently loaded map.
The overall result includes any cells that were learned during any of your sessions. BUT!! ...if you only learned one cell one time then the result may not be accurate ...because of a whole pile of considerations discussed ad nauseam in the Tuning forum section.
So, it is possible that the process may learn/tune the same cell a few times (which is a good thing), but equally, may never tune some cells any times (now you see the problem).
Other tuners say to keep tuning until your CLI is within a few percent ...the FP3 can't tell you that so it becomes a bit more manual, and know what you are doing kind of thing. One of these days V&H may give the product the ability to capture logs ...that will be a good step forward.
Last edited by Gordon61; Nov 18, 2017 at 10:40 AM.
It did, sort of...
An "autotune" session ONLY tries to map the VE tables based on setting the whole table into closed-loop and then reading what the O2 sensors say. It does absolutely jack else, and then there is the question about are 1/ narrowband O2 sensors, and 2/ trying to do this on the street, good enough to get GOOD readings.
Anyway...
FP3 takes readings for VE cells in your tables and you are looking for them going green.
"Apply" updates the "autotune map in memory" with any Green learned values, clears the hits table, and keeps going with a new autotune session.
When you eventually hit finish, it applies any more learned values to the "autotune map in memory" and then asks you to save the overall result in one of your slots. This will automatically flashed to the bike as the currently loaded map.
The overall result includes any cells that were learned during any of your sessions. BUT!! ...if you only learned one cell one time then the result may not be accurate ...because of a whole pile of considerations discussed ad nauseam in the Tuning forum section.
So, it is possible that the process may learn/tune the same cell a few times (which is a good thing), but equally, may never tune some cells any times (now you see the problem).
Other tuners say to keep tuning until your CLI is within a few percent ...the FP3 can't tell you that so it becomes a bit more manual, and know what you are doing kind of thing. One of these days V&H may give the product the ability to capture logs ...that will be a good step forward.
An "autotune" session ONLY tries to map the VE tables based on setting the whole table into closed-loop and then reading what the O2 sensors say. It does absolutely jack else, and then there is the question about are 1/ narrowband O2 sensors, and 2/ trying to do this on the street, good enough to get GOOD readings.
Anyway...
FP3 takes readings for VE cells in your tables and you are looking for them going green.
"Apply" updates the "autotune map in memory" with any Green learned values, clears the hits table, and keeps going with a new autotune session.
When you eventually hit finish, it applies any more learned values to the "autotune map in memory" and then asks you to save the overall result in one of your slots. This will automatically flashed to the bike as the currently loaded map.
The overall result includes any cells that were learned during any of your sessions. BUT!! ...if you only learned one cell one time then the result may not be accurate ...because of a whole pile of considerations discussed ad nauseam in the Tuning forum section.
So, it is possible that the process may learn/tune the same cell a few times (which is a good thing), but equally, may never tune some cells any times (now you see the problem).
Other tuners say to keep tuning until your CLI is within a few percent ...the FP3 can't tell you that so it becomes a bit more manual, and know what you are doing kind of thing. One of these days V&H may give the product the ability to capture logs ...that will be a good step forward.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
Go for a little ride and be as varied as you can.
Stop, look at what green cells you have, and work out what to try in the next ten minutes
...rince/repeat until you have a whole pile of green
Two good attempts like that will probably get you as close as you are likely to get
What helps is some tape on your throttle with the various TPS %ages marked so that you can hit them as easily as possible.
Now the question might be how hard do you want to push it if she isn't run-in yet ...you may want to leave tuning higher throttle openings or at least higher revs until you have some reasonable miles on the clock.
Stop, look at what green cells you have, and work out what to try in the next ten minutes
...rince/repeat until you have a whole pile of green
Two good attempts like that will probably get you as close as you are likely to get
What helps is some tape on your throttle with the various TPS %ages marked so that you can hit them as easily as possible.
Now the question might be how hard do you want to push it if she isn't run-in yet ...you may want to leave tuning higher throttle openings or at least higher revs until you have some reasonable miles on the clock.
Ive put in about 600 miles so far, took it easy he first 200 miles. Would you say thats good as far as break in? I guess I can give her a higher rev after about 1k miles.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
I'll let the engine builders comment on that one. There seems to be difference of opinion on what is best for an engine - hit it hard, or molly coddle it.
The thing about tuning on a dyno is the environment is completely controlled (or should be anyway) and these guys know what they are doing (or should anyway)
DIY on the street?? all bets are off.
My two pence/cents (just from reading here) is once you have seated the rings, follow what the book says.
The thing about tuning on a dyno is the environment is completely controlled (or should be anyway) and these guys know what they are doing (or should anyway)
DIY on the street?? all bets are off.
My two pence/cents (just from reading here) is once you have seated the rings, follow what the book says.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,117
Likes: 1,193
From: Maryland
Other tuners say to keep tuning until your CLI is within a few percent ...the FP3 can't tell you that so it becomes a bit more manual, and know what you are doing kind of thing. One of these days V&H may give the product the ability to capture logs ...that will be a good step forward.
Last edited by T^2; Nov 18, 2017 at 12:19 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
I think we have both been here before huh 
Not to regurgitate the Tuning forum completely but - narrowband (stock) have a faster response, but only have limited range of AFR. So maybe a better ability to get more data points per cell, but not necessarily good to be running the engine at 14.3 at high revs/high load and maybe pinging (i) the heck out of the engine.
Wideband can measure what you need at the AFR you need but are slower to respond so data collection has to be rather purposeful...
In regards to being able to "see" how close your tune is getting...
Logging, logging, and more logging!! you need to be able to collect logs so you can "see" what is really going on. And comparing tunes on a computer is priceless, as is sharing said maps with folks that can maybe help you.
(i) Oh and what about spark knock
Wideband can measure what you need at the AFR you need but are slower to respond so data collection has to be rather purposeful...
The disadvantage of attempting to do this work via the street is the lack of control. Particularly when it comes to wide bands (but presumably also applies to narrow band to some extent), is the importance of keeping the engine in particular cells long enough to get good samples and avoiding rapid transients. Braking on a dyno makes this controllable. Harder to do when riding on the roads.
In regards to being able to "see" how close your tune is getting...
Logging, logging, and more logging!! you need to be able to collect logs so you can "see" what is really going on. And comparing tunes on a computer is priceless, as is sharing said maps with folks that can maybe help you.
(i) Oh and what about spark knock
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,117
Likes: 1,193
From: Maryland
...Not to regurgitate the Tuning forum completely but - narrowband (stock) have a faster response, but only have limited range of AFR. So maybe a better ability to get more data points per cell, but not necessarily good to be running the engine at 14.3 at high revs/high load and maybe pinging (i) the heck out of the engine.
Wideband can measure what you need at the AFR you need but are slower to respond so data collection has to be rather purposeful...
Wideband can measure what you need at the AFR you need but are slower to respond so data collection has to be rather purposeful...
There are no knock sensors on Sporty's. So the PV can do nothing in regards to spark for them. On the BT's, the PV will utilize the knock sensors and make minor timing corrections to prevent knocking.
Auto tuning with wide bands/Target Tune does remove the above constraints. It doesn't need to make changes to your AFR or spark tables etc. etc. However, the slower response time of the wide bands needs to be considered - as noted in the previous replies.
Lastly, when all things have been considered and accomplished with "auto tuning", only an attempt at calibrating the VE tables has been done. Actual "tuning" involves much more.
Also something to consider/ask yourselves... If only minor changes are being made to the components that effect VE (ie. exhaust/intake), is there anything really being accomplished by "Auto Tuning" with a FP3/PV (particularly when doing it with narrow bands)? After all, it's got closed loop control and adaptive learning. I often read post by folks where they discuss their minor changes to the exhaust/intake and talk about auto tuning their stock tune with a FP3/PV. I often wonder what they think they've accomplished.
Last edited by T^2; Nov 18, 2017 at 03:19 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
Without going off down the rabbit hole too far, all I meant about spark knock was ...the FP3 has no ability to report or do anything about knock, even if your engine does have sensors. The Op's bike has sensors.
If people are interested in the details of tuning, rather than just pushing the mythical "autotune" button, then there is already a vast amount of info and some real pukka people to ask over in the Dyno Room forum. Maybe best catching up over there than starting to beat up old discussions here.
Possibly. Steve and Jason answered some of this for you over at...
I'll add as an example that I swopped between standard and quiet baffles on a set of V&H slip-ons, and the VE tables changed by up to 15 or so percent in some parts of the table. Now if adaptive can only swing so far, that could push closed-loop's ability to one side of the wall. Couple that with maybe you weren't in the middle to start with and well, it all gets rather guesstimate doesn't it.
And, the adaptive tables that you think may keep you sorted have nowhere near as many columns as the VE table themselves so that just makes it all even more of a guess.
If people are interested in the details of tuning, rather than just pushing the mythical "autotune" button, then there is already a vast amount of info and some real pukka people to ask over in the Dyno Room forum. Maybe best catching up over there than starting to beat up old discussions here.
I'll add as an example that I swopped between standard and quiet baffles on a set of V&H slip-ons, and the VE tables changed by up to 15 or so percent in some parts of the table. Now if adaptive can only swing so far, that could push closed-loop's ability to one side of the wall. Couple that with maybe you weren't in the middle to start with and well, it all gets rather guesstimate doesn't it.
And, the adaptive tables that you think may keep you sorted have nowhere near as many columns as the VE table themselves so that just makes it all even more of a guess.
Last edited by Gordon61; Nov 18, 2017 at 05:18 PM.
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