Engine noise, at wits end, need help
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 872
Likes: 7
From: Edmonton
Engine noise, at wits end, need help
Long story, thought give all details. Hopefully someone has a solution. 09 Rocker. Last winter I pulled off the rocker boxes, primary cover, cam cover, oil tank for powder coating. Put bike back together. Also bike has woods 555 cams, fuel moto adjustable pushrods, tune, pipes, air cleaner for past 7 years with no issues.
Went for for ride in spring, all good. Went for a second, filled up with gas and about 10 minutes later the engine was ticking, banging metal to metal noise. Sounded to me like a pushrod moving around. Got bike home. Took look at pushrods & front intake was loose, 1/8"+ movement up & down, others good. Figured collapsed lifter. Got new lifters from HARLEY (stock ones, not SE). Put back together. Ran nice & quiet until engine warm. Starts knocking. Used stethoscope & figured it sounded like noise from rocker arms, installed rocker lockers, purred like a kitten until engine got warm.
checked compensator nut, tight, no inherent compensator noise. Talked to 2 senior HARLEY techs at 2 dealers with a voice clip. They both said not a compensator. Compression tested good. Pressure tested cyclinders to find front intake valve not fully seated. Pulled valve out & lapped it. Seated now & passed leak test.
Pulled cam cam plate out, replaced cam bearings. Checked crank run out, good within 10 thousands.
also reflashed the tune & changed plugs.
Idle led good most time & erratic then good.
Havent pulled jugs & looked in bottom end.
Running out out of ideas before I break down & take to dealer
any help would be appreciated
Went for for ride in spring, all good. Went for a second, filled up with gas and about 10 minutes later the engine was ticking, banging metal to metal noise. Sounded to me like a pushrod moving around. Got bike home. Took look at pushrods & front intake was loose, 1/8"+ movement up & down, others good. Figured collapsed lifter. Got new lifters from HARLEY (stock ones, not SE). Put back together. Ran nice & quiet until engine warm. Starts knocking. Used stethoscope & figured it sounded like noise from rocker arms, installed rocker lockers, purred like a kitten until engine got warm.
checked compensator nut, tight, no inherent compensator noise. Talked to 2 senior HARLEY techs at 2 dealers with a voice clip. They both said not a compensator. Compression tested good. Pressure tested cyclinders to find front intake valve not fully seated. Pulled valve out & lapped it. Seated now & passed leak test.
Pulled cam cam plate out, replaced cam bearings. Checked crank run out, good within 10 thousands.
also reflashed the tune & changed plugs.
Idle led good most time & erratic then good.
Havent pulled jugs & looked in bottom end.
Running out out of ideas before I break down & take to dealer
any help would be appreciated
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,143
Likes: 11,211
From: San Diego, CA
Several questions came to my mind
Why was the pushrod loose...?
Did the adjustment bolt come loose? If not, what was worn/broken for the pushrod to be loose....?
Are you certain the lifter was collapsed/broken? If not, did you find the actual cause of the pushrod coming loose?
You found a valve not seated... was it the same valve with the loose pushrod? Could the valve seating issue be from a bent/damaged rocker arm or valve seat retainer...?
Did you check the rocker arms and the rocker arm tip the loose pushrod was in, for damage that could have been caused by the loose pushrod?
Did you check the pushrod itself for damage that could have been caused by the loose pushrod?
You probably checked all these things, but they popped into my mind as I read your post
Two other things you mentioned:
Crank run out, "good within 10 thousands." ........ Do you mean less than .010....??? Good runout is actually .003 or less..... You can't run gear drive cams with any runout greater than .003 (maybe .004) if you want the gears to last... Yes, Harley tried to hide their crappy cranks by increasing the "acceptable" crank runout up to 0.012" (I could be wrong on that final allowable run out number). But that doesn't mean the run out is good... only acceptable by HD standards, so they avoid paying for bad cranks or paying to improve the crank run out in production. A Tactic the MoCo has used before and is using now with the M8 issues, to avoid the cost of a proper fix...
"Also when engine hot I can push down on the pushrods making them loose"...... when a pushrod is properly adjusted, I don't think you should be able to collapse the lifter easily. I have never tried to do that, but it doesn't sound right to me.. I'll be corrected if I'm wrong on that.
Still, it doesn't change the fact that the OEM "C" lifters are junk. OEM HD lifters... the "C" lifters (#18538-99C) are known to be substandard by all accounts.... While I won't make a trip into the cam chest just to change them, if I am ever in the cam chest I replace them ASAP, along with the OEM INA brand cam bearings. I DO have the sickness, so I'm usually in the cam chest before too long....
There are many very good lifters out there. I use Johnson Hylift, sold by WFO Larry (Larry's Motor Machine). They are excellent lifters and affordable...
http://www.larrysmotorcyclemachine.com/lifters.html
Keep us posted on what you do, and what the problem is ...
Why was the pushrod loose...?
Did the adjustment bolt come loose? If not, what was worn/broken for the pushrod to be loose....?
Are you certain the lifter was collapsed/broken? If not, did you find the actual cause of the pushrod coming loose?
You found a valve not seated... was it the same valve with the loose pushrod? Could the valve seating issue be from a bent/damaged rocker arm or valve seat retainer...?
Did you check the rocker arms and the rocker arm tip the loose pushrod was in, for damage that could have been caused by the loose pushrod?
Did you check the pushrod itself for damage that could have been caused by the loose pushrod?
You probably checked all these things, but they popped into my mind as I read your post
Two other things you mentioned:
Crank run out, "good within 10 thousands." ........ Do you mean less than .010....??? Good runout is actually .003 or less..... You can't run gear drive cams with any runout greater than .003 (maybe .004) if you want the gears to last... Yes, Harley tried to hide their crappy cranks by increasing the "acceptable" crank runout up to 0.012" (I could be wrong on that final allowable run out number). But that doesn't mean the run out is good... only acceptable by HD standards, so they avoid paying for bad cranks or paying to improve the crank run out in production. A Tactic the MoCo has used before and is using now with the M8 issues, to avoid the cost of a proper fix...
"Also when engine hot I can push down on the pushrods making them loose"...... when a pushrod is properly adjusted, I don't think you should be able to collapse the lifter easily. I have never tried to do that, but it doesn't sound right to me.. I'll be corrected if I'm wrong on that.
Still, it doesn't change the fact that the OEM "C" lifters are junk. OEM HD lifters... the "C" lifters (#18538-99C) are known to be substandard by all accounts.... While I won't make a trip into the cam chest just to change them, if I am ever in the cam chest I replace them ASAP, along with the OEM INA brand cam bearings. I DO have the sickness, so I'm usually in the cam chest before too long....
There are many very good lifters out there. I use Johnson Hylift, sold by WFO Larry (Larry's Motor Machine). They are excellent lifters and affordable...
http://www.larrysmotorcyclemachine.com/lifters.html
Keep us posted on what you do, and what the problem is ...
Last edited by hattitude; Jun 27, 2019 at 10:16 PM.
Thread Starter
|
Road Master
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 872
Likes: 7
From: Edmonton
Several questions came to my mind
Why was the pushrod loose...? That was my thought immediately
Did the adjustment bolt come loose? If not, what was worn/broken for the pushrod to be loose....? Adjustment nut tight,
Are you certain the lifter was collapsed/broken? If not, did you find the actual cause of the pushrod coming loose? Just guessing as HARLEY known for weak lifters
You found a valve not seated... was it the same valve with the loose pushrod? Could the valve seating issue be from a bent/damaged rocker arm or valve seat retainer...? Same valve as loose pushrod. Miked it & not bent, cleaned carbon off valve & head, not seated.
Did you check the rocker arms and the rocker arm tip the loose pushrod was in, for damage that could have been caused by the loose pushrod? Checked & measured all 4, same
Did you check the pushrod itself for damage that could have been caused by the loose pushrod? Checked straightness on all 4 spinning them in a drill
You probably checked all these things, but they popped into my mind as I read your post
Two other things you mentioned:
Crank run out, "good within 10 thousands." ........ Do you mean less than .010....??? Good runout is actually .003 or less..... You can't run gear drive cams with any runout greater than .003 (maybe .004) if you want the gears to last... Yes, Harley tried to hide their crappy cranks by increasing the "acceptable" crank runout up to 0.012" (I could be wrong on that final allowable run out number). But that doesn't mean the run out is good... only acceptable by HD standards, so they avoid paying for bad cranks or paying to improve the crank run out in production. A Tactic the MoCo has used before and is using now with the M8 issues, to avoid the cost of a proper fix...
.0010, actual was .0008
"Also when engine hot I can push down on the pushrods making them loose"...... when a pushrod is properly adjusted, I don't think you should be able to collapse the lifter easily. I have never tried to do that, but it doesn't sound right to me.. I'll be corrected if I'm wrong on that. Tried several adjustments starting at 4 turns (recommended by fuel moto) 2 flats less, 2 flats more, no change
Still, it doesn't change the fact that the OEM "C" lifters are junk. OEM HD lifters... the "C" lifters (#18538-99C) are known to be substandard by all accounts.... While I won't make a trip into the cam chest just to change them, if I am ever in the cam chest I replace them ASAP, along with the OEM INA brand cam bearings. I DO have the sickness, so I'm usually in the cam chest before too long.... unfortunately I am limited to lifter availability in Canada unless I wanted to wait for 10 days. Figured throw in OEM lifters as should be fine when new
There are many very good lifters out there. I use Johnson Hylift, sold by WFO Larry (Larry's Motor Machine). They are excellent lifters and affordable...
http://www.larrysmotorcyclemachine.com/lifters.html
Keep us posted on what you do, and what the problem is ...
Why was the pushrod loose...? That was my thought immediately
Did the adjustment bolt come loose? If not, what was worn/broken for the pushrod to be loose....? Adjustment nut tight,
Are you certain the lifter was collapsed/broken? If not, did you find the actual cause of the pushrod coming loose? Just guessing as HARLEY known for weak lifters
You found a valve not seated... was it the same valve with the loose pushrod? Could the valve seating issue be from a bent/damaged rocker arm or valve seat retainer...? Same valve as loose pushrod. Miked it & not bent, cleaned carbon off valve & head, not seated.
Did you check the rocker arms and the rocker arm tip the loose pushrod was in, for damage that could have been caused by the loose pushrod? Checked & measured all 4, same
Did you check the pushrod itself for damage that could have been caused by the loose pushrod? Checked straightness on all 4 spinning them in a drill
You probably checked all these things, but they popped into my mind as I read your post
Two other things you mentioned:
Crank run out, "good within 10 thousands." ........ Do you mean less than .010....??? Good runout is actually .003 or less..... You can't run gear drive cams with any runout greater than .003 (maybe .004) if you want the gears to last... Yes, Harley tried to hide their crappy cranks by increasing the "acceptable" crank runout up to 0.012" (I could be wrong on that final allowable run out number). But that doesn't mean the run out is good... only acceptable by HD standards, so they avoid paying for bad cranks or paying to improve the crank run out in production. A Tactic the MoCo has used before and is using now with the M8 issues, to avoid the cost of a proper fix...
.0010, actual was .0008
"Also when engine hot I can push down on the pushrods making them loose"...... when a pushrod is properly adjusted, I don't think you should be able to collapse the lifter easily. I have never tried to do that, but it doesn't sound right to me.. I'll be corrected if I'm wrong on that. Tried several adjustments starting at 4 turns (recommended by fuel moto) 2 flats less, 2 flats more, no change
Still, it doesn't change the fact that the OEM "C" lifters are junk. OEM HD lifters... the "C" lifters (#18538-99C) are known to be substandard by all accounts.... While I won't make a trip into the cam chest just to change them, if I am ever in the cam chest I replace them ASAP, along with the OEM INA brand cam bearings. I DO have the sickness, so I'm usually in the cam chest before too long....
unfortunately I am limited to lifter availability in Canada unless I wanted to wait for 10 days. Figured throw in OEM lifters as should be fine when newThere are many very good lifters out there. I use Johnson Hylift, sold by WFO Larry (Larry's Motor Machine). They are excellent lifters and affordable...
http://www.larrysmotorcyclemachine.com/lifters.html
Keep us posted on what you do, and what the problem is ...
thanks for you input, appreciated
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