Tuner Beware!
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 866
Likes: 248
From: N.Y.C
BINGO......!!!
Why do you think the MoCo entered into the Consent decree with the EPA....???
It has been a boon to the MoCo.... people are buying upgrades from the MoCo, who would usually get much better mods from aftermarket sources...!!
But it won't kill the aftermarket industry...... Like IdahoHacker said, there are many people who don't care about the warranty, don't have the dealer do any work on their bikes, or will just wait until the warranty is up...
The aftermarket for M8 upgrades is thriving... and many shops, FuelMoto comes to mind as one of them, are getting really good gains with their big bore kits...!
Why do you think the MoCo entered into the Consent decree with the EPA....???
It has been a boon to the MoCo.... people are buying upgrades from the MoCo, who would usually get much better mods from aftermarket sources...!!
But it won't kill the aftermarket industry...... Like IdahoHacker said, there are many people who don't care about the warranty, don't have the dealer do any work on their bikes, or will just wait until the warranty is up...
The aftermarket for M8 upgrades is thriving... and many shops, FuelMoto comes to mind as one of them, are getting really good gains with their big bore kits...!
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,050
Likes: 11,068
From: San Diego, CA
I think you're missing the whole point.
So you have two choices, when modding a new warrantied bike: either a) don't put on street-illegal parts, or b) put 'em on and recognize that you yourself have voided the warranty, you yourself have caused the VIN to get flagged, and you yourself have created the situation where the bike is now worth half its value.
So you have two choices, when modding a new warrantied bike: either a) don't put on street-illegal parts, or b) put 'em on and recognize that you yourself have voided the warranty, you yourself have caused the VIN to get flagged, and you yourself have created the situation where the bike is now worth half its value.
I have always been willing to pay to play.... I voided the warranty on my '03 Heritage, knowingly, 2 months after purchase...
BUT...
I totally disagree that using non-SE parts will cut your bike's value in half.... That will only pertain to trade-in value during the warranty period...
I usually buy a stock bike and set-it up the way I want... However, if I was looking at a bike that was out of warranty, and one had a FuelMoto big bore kit tuned with a PowerVision, and the other had an SE big bore kit, tuned with the HD tuner.. there's no doubt in my mind which bike is worth more...... figuratively AND literally.... !
(hint: it's not the SE built bike)
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,050
Likes: 11,068
From: San Diego, CA
That's the part people don't understand....
The consent decree is an agreement between the EPA and MoCo....
Yes, the MoCo was found in violation of EPA regulations
Yes, the MoCo was hit with a big fine....
Harley had little control/input to the above......
But then the EPA lawyers AND MoCo lawyers hammer out an after action plan on how to "fix" this and make it right. They work out an agreement that gets the change the EPA wants, and in a way that the MoCo will agree to, without forcing further litigation. The agreement is a win for both parties..... Funny how the consent decree really boosted the M8 performance part purchases for the MoCo....
The MoCo knew they had the only EPA approved tuner, they had no choice but to develop one. So they agreed to a course of action that put them in the prime market spot (the only market spot) for tuning M8 engines legally... and force all dealers to use/sell the MoCo tuner or lose the warranty for their customers...
Then, because of the reporting requirements and EPA oversight of the decree (that the MoCo helped write and agreed to), the MoCo is now are playing hardball with other aspects of their written warranty that they previously ignored.... which forces people who want their warranty to buy only SE performance parts for two years...
They are pointing the finger at the EPA, saying "they made me do it", and laughing all the way to the bank..!!!
Last edited by hattitude; Nov 14, 2019 at 12:51 PM.
Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 11,460
Likes: 3,554
From: Idaho
Exactly. ^^^ The EPA and Harley's lawyers sat down in a room, and over cups of coffee and a lot of sentences that started with: "Ok, how about if we agree to do this...", they ended up 100% in agreement with each other about what the agreement would say.
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,779
Likes: 223
From: Northern California
Bottom line, definitely changes up how we build these bikes...
I’m going to build this bike as I always have, tune it with the same tuner I’ve been using for years and as I’ve always done, maintain my own bike.
If the time comes that I’d like to trade it in, I will return it back to stock and slap in a new ECM and call it a day.
Thanks for all the very informative information
I’m going to build this bike as I always have, tune it with the same tuner I’ve been using for years and as I’ve always done, maintain my own bike.
If the time comes that I’d like to trade it in, I will return it back to stock and slap in a new ECM and call it a day.
Thanks for all the very informative information
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 13,037
Likes: 12,950
From: Texas, USA
During the warranty period. After the warranty has expired the MoCo and dealers could give two ***** what you do to your bike.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,779
Likes: 223
From: Northern California
What hasn’t been discussed is after the factory warranty has expired, and you then bring your modified bike to a dealership and they plug it in. No warranty to void but what about flagging your vin?
Last edited by Puttnutt24; Nov 14, 2019 at 03:18 PM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 13,037
Likes: 12,950
From: Texas, USA
There are two very large groups of 2017+ Harley riders that will keep the aftermarket going: Riders who don't care about their powertrain warranty and will do everything they want as soon as they buy the bike, and riders who will simply wait two years and one day and then do everything they want.
Again, just to be sure you clearly understand this, Harley did NOT flag your VIN with the EPA.
They flagged your VIN with themselves only, with the Harley-Davidson Motor Company and all of their dealerships only, to make sure you never got any powertrain warranty coverage on that bike forever.
They flagged your VIN with themselves only, with the Harley-Davidson Motor Company and all of their dealerships only, to make sure you never got any powertrain warranty coverage on that bike forever.
Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 11,460
Likes: 3,554
From: Idaho
The reason they would flag your VIN is to void the powertrain portion of your 24-month factory warranty. Before the warranty expired, obviously. Even then, the rest of your 24-month factory warranty would still be valid.
However, after the ENTIRE warranty is expired, flagging your VIN would be pointless.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,050
Likes: 11,068
From: San Diego, CA
It won't matter if they plug your bike into the DT2. It won't matter if they flag your VIN. Flagging your VIN after the factory warranty expired would accomplish nothing.
The reason they would flag your VIN is to void the powertrain portion of your 24-month factory warranty. Before the warranty expired, obviously. Even then, the rest of your 24-month factory warranty would still be valid.
However, after the ENTIRE warranty is expired, flagging your VIN would be pointless.
The reason they would flag your VIN is to void the powertrain portion of your 24-month factory warranty. Before the warranty expired, obviously. Even then, the rest of your 24-month factory warranty would still be valid.
However, after the ENTIRE warranty is expired, flagging your VIN would be pointless.
Probably pointless...
I'm not sure how extended warranties work... perhaps, that would be the only way reason to flag the bike once the factory warranty is up, to prevent any kind of extended warranty coverage...
But flagging it won't affect the anything else....