Stock Air Cleaner
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 2
From: Nebraska
The pipes were around 500 and came with the standard tips. The tips were 140 extra. I found them on ebay but don't remember with who as it's been over a year now. I am also running the quiet baffles as I don't like the tinny sound of stock baffles.
I bet you could find the same thing cheaper than I paid but I haven't looked.
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 530
Likes: 2
From: Hereford, Arizona
I did some seat of the pants testing today. The purpose was to see if the air cleaner filter is restrictive on my stock 96" motor with aftermarket exhaust. My reasoning was as follows, one if the air filter housing was restrictive then by removing the chrome ac cover I could cover that base without hacking the backplate. And two if that didn't yield some kind of result then I'd ride the bike with no air cleaner at all. Now the results I was looking for was if the bike was flowing more air then that would disrupt the ECM calibration and I'd get rough running, popping on decel, surging, etc.
After warming the bike completely so I was on closed loop I did a 7 mile hop consisting of stop light traffic then on to a 3 mile run on the freeway where I opened her up on the on-ramp and ran the bike up to 80mph.
At no time did the bike run any different than it did with an air filter and cover attached. Thus I had to do both runs, one with filter without cover and then with no filter at all. The bike just ran as it always did. I even put my hand down on the intake hole while on the freeway to see if it was sucking hard like my shop vac. Not even close.
So even though the stock air filter flows lowest among all those tested by Cav Cop it does flow a lot.
My conclusion is I'll get the TTS put in a map that corresponds to having a high flowing air filter and exhaust and go from there. If I run into problems then I'll repeat the test again with the new map. If it then shows that I need a higher flowing filter then I'll do it. But I'm really doubting that after today.
Yeh Fast Ed, go ahead and call me every name in the book, I can take it. But I still don't know why it's any skin off your nose what I do with my time and money. I just like to analyze things that's all. I know it offends you something fierce that I just don't take your word for it but I don't know you from shinola man. Nor do I care to.
After warming the bike completely so I was on closed loop I did a 7 mile hop consisting of stop light traffic then on to a 3 mile run on the freeway where I opened her up on the on-ramp and ran the bike up to 80mph.
At no time did the bike run any different than it did with an air filter and cover attached. Thus I had to do both runs, one with filter without cover and then with no filter at all. The bike just ran as it always did. I even put my hand down on the intake hole while on the freeway to see if it was sucking hard like my shop vac. Not even close.
So even though the stock air filter flows lowest among all those tested by Cav Cop it does flow a lot.
My conclusion is I'll get the TTS put in a map that corresponds to having a high flowing air filter and exhaust and go from there. If I run into problems then I'll repeat the test again with the new map. If it then shows that I need a higher flowing filter then I'll do it. But I'm really doubting that after today.
Yeh Fast Ed, go ahead and call me every name in the book, I can take it. But I still don't know why it's any skin off your nose what I do with my time and money. I just like to analyze things that's all. I know it offends you something fierce that I just don't take your word for it but I don't know you from shinola man. Nor do I care to.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,257
Likes: 6
From: Leander Texas
http://www.knfilters.com/testmethod.htm
http://www.knfilters.com/audio/03%20...Wilderness.mp3
http://www.knfilters.com/audio/18%20...Horsepower.mp3
http://www.knfilters.com/efficiency_testing.htm
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/massairfindings.htm
http://www.aptfast.com/KN_Additional...acts.htm#PAPER
http://www.knfilters.com/audio/03%20...Wilderness.mp3
http://www.knfilters.com/audio/18%20...Horsepower.mp3
http://www.knfilters.com/efficiency_testing.htm
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/massairfindings.htm
http://www.aptfast.com/KN_Additional...acts.htm#PAPER
Last edited by tk353; Oct 17, 2009 at 07:35 PM.
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 530
Likes: 2
From: Hereford, Arizona
Thanks for all the technical data TK. The very last link compares paper filters to other types of filter elements. The stock Harley filter is not paper. It's some REALLY tough cotton I'm guessing. It's fairly thick, I'd say at least 1/8th inch and like I said it's really tough. All the fibers are at different angles and layed over each other. The edges are bonded to the upper and lower shells for an airtight seal. It's a really high quality filter and cleanable like K&N.
After reading some more I think the filter material is exactly like K&N's. They call it cotton gauze and that's exactly what it looks like. I took an old filter and tore it up to examine it. I think the only difference is that K&N's have screening on both sides whereas the stock only has screen on the inside.
After reading some more I think the filter material is exactly like K&N's. They call it cotton gauze and that's exactly what it looks like. I took an old filter and tore it up to examine it. I think the only difference is that K&N's have screening on both sides whereas the stock only has screen on the inside.
Last edited by plane; Oct 17, 2009 at 08:32 PM.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,580
Likes: 7
From: The Internet (& Dyer, Indiana)
then I'd ride the bike with no air cleaner at all. Now the results I was looking for was if the bike was flowing more air then that would disrupt the ECM calibration and I'd get rough running, popping on decel, surging, etc.
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 530
Likes: 2
From: Hereford, Arizona
I'm only relaying what I was told at the dealer. You can change either pipes or ac but not both without a remap. If you do the bike will not run right.
Today I did both and the bike ran exactly the same. The oil temp wasn't any higher than normal. Everything was as if I had the stock AC on.
Today I did both and the bike ran exactly the same. The oil temp wasn't any higher than normal. Everything was as if I had the stock AC on.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,580
Likes: 7
From: The Internet (& Dyer, Indiana)
I'm only relaying what I was told at the dealer. You can change either pipes or ac but not both without a remap. If you do the bike will not run right.
Popping and running rough? not likely. Yes, a remap is needed to compensate fuel for the extra air.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,257
Likes: 6
From: Leander Texas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r8Na...layer_embedded
read the user comments
anyway will all the years of experience in the HD Forum you wont be able to win an argument that the stock filter flows air better or the same as an aftermarket or screamin eagle filter. also the video did not have the k&n oiled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIJttijvPWE&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9k78...eature=related
read the user comments
anyway will all the years of experience in the HD Forum you wont be able to win an argument that the stock filter flows air better or the same as an aftermarket or screamin eagle filter. also the video did not have the k&n oiled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIJttijvPWE&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9k78...eature=related
Last edited by tk353; Oct 17, 2009 at 10:57 PM.
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Tourer
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 362
Likes: 1
From: Texas
Thanks for all the technical data TK. The very last link compares paper filters to other types of filter elements. The stock Harley filter is not paper. It's some REALLY tough cotton I'm guessing. It's fairly thick, I'd say at least 1/8th inch and like I said it's really tough. All the fibers are at different angles and layed over each other. The edges are bonded to the upper and lower shells for an airtight seal. It's a really high quality filter and cleanable like K&N.
After reading some more I think the filter material is exactly like K&N's. They call it cotton gauze and that's exactly what it looks like. I took an old filter and tore it up to examine it. I think the only difference is that K&N's have screening on both sides whereas the stock only has screen on the inside.
After reading some more I think the filter material is exactly like K&N's. They call it cotton gauze and that's exactly what it looks like. I took an old filter and tore it up to examine it. I think the only difference is that K&N's have screening on both sides whereas the stock only has screen on the inside.
FWIW K&N/SE http://www.knfilters.com/harley_custom.htm
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 530
Likes: 2
From: Hereford, Arizona
Ok I get the point on K&N, I know it's quality stuff but so is stock. But that isn't what I was really getting at.
I think, at least for me anyway changing the pipes and ac don't really affect a whole lot. A bit sure and since I have an O2 bike the ECM can compensate. I'm not talking about pre O2 bikes so let me make that clear. I think some of what I've read applies to bikes without O2 (autotune).
I wanted to know if the stock AC could flow enough air and I think it does easily. CFM numbers are just that, numbers. They don't really tell me a whole lot because I have no idea what the CFM requirement is on the motor. Today convinced me that no harm would be done by slapping on a K&N filter without a remap. I just wouldn't get much out of it.
I'm convinced that it's the EPA stock map in HD's so they can meet federal guidelines that is the problem, not the exhaust or ac.
Once I remap with a tuner/ dyno or whatever THEN the advantages of better breathing come into play, but I also think power can still be gained without either exhaust or ac upgrades.
I think a good example is the power chips for Diesel trucks. Just slap in a chip (remap) and you get way more power yet you're still utilizing stock filter and exhaust.
I don't know if anyone has ever done it but my guess is you could remap with everything stock and gain enough power that you could feel it.
TK, you mentioned that you did something along this line with PCIII, but it wasn't real clear to me if it was on your Fatboy or Sportster. You also didn't say if it helped or made things worse. I wish you'd go into more detail on that if possible.
I think, at least for me anyway changing the pipes and ac don't really affect a whole lot. A bit sure and since I have an O2 bike the ECM can compensate. I'm not talking about pre O2 bikes so let me make that clear. I think some of what I've read applies to bikes without O2 (autotune).
I wanted to know if the stock AC could flow enough air and I think it does easily. CFM numbers are just that, numbers. They don't really tell me a whole lot because I have no idea what the CFM requirement is on the motor. Today convinced me that no harm would be done by slapping on a K&N filter without a remap. I just wouldn't get much out of it.
I'm convinced that it's the EPA stock map in HD's so they can meet federal guidelines that is the problem, not the exhaust or ac.
Once I remap with a tuner/ dyno or whatever THEN the advantages of better breathing come into play, but I also think power can still be gained without either exhaust or ac upgrades.
I think a good example is the power chips for Diesel trucks. Just slap in a chip (remap) and you get way more power yet you're still utilizing stock filter and exhaust.
I don't know if anyone has ever done it but my guess is you could remap with everything stock and gain enough power that you could feel it.
TK, you mentioned that you did something along this line with PCIII, but it wasn't real clear to me if it was on your Fatboy or Sportster. You also didn't say if it helped or made things worse. I wish you'd go into more detail on that if possible.
Last edited by plane; Oct 18, 2009 at 12:15 AM.