Stage #1 Troubles
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Novice
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: Rapid City SD
Stage #1 Troubles
Ok Gents,
I need some help. I am not new to the game but I am not sure with the newer bikes whats what. My last scooter was a 2008 sporty, I had a lot of work done to it and did most of it myself. One of the first things done on my 1200 sporty was the stage #1: High flow SE breather with V/H short shots and fuelpak system. Scooter ran like a raped ape. I'm on a 2012 FLSTN now, and just threw on some Samsons 28.1/2 TDs with a stage 1 SE breather (not high flow) part #29773-02C "Stg 1 EFI kit". I am still deployed so i had the ole lady drop the sled off to get the work done. She just picked the scoot up from the shop and faxed me the receit. There was no mention of a download for the ECM/remap. I immediately called the ole battle axe and asked whats up. She contact the dealer and they said with the newer bikes this is not necessary. They did mention something about changing timing and that they dont charge for it b/c they have to do it with the newer model engines???? My wife could be messing that up that info. I scratched my head and retreated to the forum to bounce it off some of you classy Gents.
-I thought if you change out intake and full exhaust, a remap or some sort of fuel management must be done to make your sled run correctly yes/no?
I need some help. I am not new to the game but I am not sure with the newer bikes whats what. My last scooter was a 2008 sporty, I had a lot of work done to it and did most of it myself. One of the first things done on my 1200 sporty was the stage #1: High flow SE breather with V/H short shots and fuelpak system. Scooter ran like a raped ape. I'm on a 2012 FLSTN now, and just threw on some Samsons 28.1/2 TDs with a stage 1 SE breather (not high flow) part #29773-02C "Stg 1 EFI kit". I am still deployed so i had the ole lady drop the sled off to get the work done. She just picked the scoot up from the shop and faxed me the receit. There was no mention of a download for the ECM/remap. I immediately called the ole battle axe and asked whats up. She contact the dealer and they said with the newer bikes this is not necessary. They did mention something about changing timing and that they dont charge for it b/c they have to do it with the newer model engines???? My wife could be messing that up that info. I scratched my head and retreated to the forum to bounce it off some of you classy Gents.
-I thought if you change out intake and full exhaust, a remap or some sort of fuel management must be done to make your sled run correctly yes/no?
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 13,094
Likes: 13,025
From: Texas, USA
I had a Stage I upgrade installed on my 2012 Heritage before delivery and they did remap the ECM. They called it a Softail calibration and charged $150.
I have to admit, it sounds strange. Usually just changing pipes doesn't require a remap, but, I have not heard anything about newer bikes not requiring it when a complete Stage I is done.
BTW, nice looking ride.
I have to admit, it sounds strange. Usually just changing pipes doesn't require a remap, but, I have not heard anything about newer bikes not requiring it when a complete Stage I is done.
BTW, nice looking ride.
Road Master
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 970
Likes: 19
From: Philippines
Wardog,
Newer bikes have Narrow Band O2 sensors and yes the ECM can make small adjustments to the Air/Fuel ratio (AFR) based on information received from the O2 sensors. However, your stock ECM map will keep the AFR on the Lean side. You would benefit greatly from an aftermarket tuner. Thundermax (Google it) replaces the stock ECM with a fully programmable module. The system also includes Wide Band O2 Sensors. In my opinion, it's the Top of the Line, although pricey. Another alternative is the Power Vision tuner. Many guys give a thumbs-up for this device.
Newer bikes have Narrow Band O2 sensors and yes the ECM can make small adjustments to the Air/Fuel ratio (AFR) based on information received from the O2 sensors. However, your stock ECM map will keep the AFR on the Lean side. You would benefit greatly from an aftermarket tuner. Thundermax (Google it) replaces the stock ECM with a fully programmable module. The system also includes Wide Band O2 Sensors. In my opinion, it's the Top of the Line, although pricey. Another alternative is the Power Vision tuner. Many guys give a thumbs-up for this device.
Thread Starter
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Novice
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 17
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From: Rapid City SD
Gents, you rock. Its morning here in the land of Jihad warriors and I have been searching the web to try and collect info on this question. Bert1200 you seem to have the same vector I have been reading on. I wanted to ensure i wasnt going to get home (in 2 weeks HOOOAHH) and open up the scoot on a straight-away and melt rods or pistons. I think I will look for a after market tuner to get every bit of that billfold I dropped on those samson TD fishtails. Thanks a bunch. I am not trying to go for heavy performance, i just want my bike to run as good as it can with minimizing heat in the pipes.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,922
Likes: 589
From: Running with the gators
In my case our new 2013 Heritage is getting slip on's keeping the stock air cleaner and no mod's are needed. If we did go high flow intake they (Harley Davidson dealer) claim you need some type of fuel management. Look into Xied's. They are cheap, $99 bucks. And do just as well as the fuel management systems. I believe the company is called Night Rider. I have them on my 2008 Sportster Roadster with the SE air cleaner and Rush Slip on's and it runs fine.
I just had a '12 Heritage on the Dyno today. With the stock A/C and Samson 28.5" fishtails, the sniffer showed it ranging between 14.5:1 and 15.5:1 in closed loop (Cruising). 14.7:1 is factory stock and is already really lean.
The new ECM do adjust, but not enough, 15.5:1 is too lean.
A download for $150 will only bring it back to 14.7:1. Better to spend $100 on an FL-XiED-10 and get it down around 14.0:1.
See more details HERE.
The new ECM do adjust, but not enough, 15.5:1 is too lean.
A download for $150 will only bring it back to 14.7:1. Better to spend $100 on an FL-XiED-10 and get it down around 14.0:1.
See more details HERE.
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Novice
Joined: Jan 2013
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From: Rapid City SD
So a little feedback, I have been researching this all friggin day. One of my troops over here is a HD mechanic in is off time. He told me with the newer model bikes if you dont change out internal engine components the bikes ECM can handle the change in AFR. A tuner couldnt hurt but it is not completely necessary. You wont melt anything. Throwing on a dyno or getting a aftermarket remap programmer is NOT by any means bad infact it will definitely fine tune your scooter and make her run at max performance.
Last edited by Wardog86; Mar 21, 2013 at 09:14 AM.
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Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 12,359
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From: WI
I just had a '12 Heritage on the Dyno today. With the stock A/C and Samson 28.5" fishtails, the sniffer showed it ranging between 14.5:1 and 15.5:1 in closed loop (Cruising). 14.7:1 is factory stock and is already really lean.
The new ECM do adjust, but not enough, 15.5:1 is too lean.
A download for $150 will only bring it back to 14.7:1. Better to spend $100 on an FL-XiED-10 and get it down around 14.0:1.
See more details HERE.
The new ECM do adjust, but not enough, 15.5:1 is too lean.
A download for $150 will only bring it back to 14.7:1. Better to spend $100 on an FL-XiED-10 and get it down around 14.0:1.
See more details HERE.
Cruiser
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
From: Allendale, Mi
How is remapping the ECM bad? It is not bad to get the airflow back in check and is better for your engine. I don't know were he went to school to learn Motorcycles. Contact fuelmoto usa when you get back stateside.
Last edited by mustang125; Mar 21, 2013 at 04:10 PM.