2015 Sportster unknown engine problems
Thread Starter
|
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: UK
2015 Sportster unknown engine problems
Hi there,
So just to start there is another topic which I created on the same issue but now making one here to try to get to the more technical part of it (the other topic is here)
So lets start I have a 2015 Sportster 72 which about an year ago started having bad rattling sound from the engine (for example listen to the attached mp3 file the rattle is towards the end of it).
I have since then contacted the dealer multiple times as well as the costumer service but both of them for a very long time claimed it is absolutely normal and most Harlays do it even from the start.
Fast forwarding to a week ago after the winter the dealer agreed to do a dyno test on the bike and told me that it showed that the timing is incorrect and since they dont know what the problem is they will have to take the engine piece by piece and investigate.
Now additionally here is what I know - the engine runs ok when cold and the rattle sound increases the hotter it gets. Also the rattle is not always present but rather only when under load i.e. going on a steep uphill or loaded with luggage.
Additionally I have found that using a extremely high octane number fuel makes it disappear (i.e. octane 100+ in EU classification).
Now the dealer says this is engine damage and needs repairs as I said also they refuse to use the warranty but that is not too important right now.
What I`m trying to find out is has anyone had the same issue and why does it happen. Is there a way of me fixing it with a tuner by adjusting the timing of the engine ? Does it really mean there is engine damage or not ?
The bike has always been serviced at the dealer and is stock without any modifications and has been in my possession since it was new.
So just to start there is another topic which I created on the same issue but now making one here to try to get to the more technical part of it (the other topic is here)
So lets start I have a 2015 Sportster 72 which about an year ago started having bad rattling sound from the engine (for example listen to the attached mp3 file the rattle is towards the end of it).
I have since then contacted the dealer multiple times as well as the costumer service but both of them for a very long time claimed it is absolutely normal and most Harlays do it even from the start.
Fast forwarding to a week ago after the winter the dealer agreed to do a dyno test on the bike and told me that it showed that the timing is incorrect and since they dont know what the problem is they will have to take the engine piece by piece and investigate.
Now additionally here is what I know - the engine runs ok when cold and the rattle sound increases the hotter it gets. Also the rattle is not always present but rather only when under load i.e. going on a steep uphill or loaded with luggage.
Additionally I have found that using a extremely high octane number fuel makes it disappear (i.e. octane 100+ in EU classification).
Now the dealer says this is engine damage and needs repairs as I said also they refuse to use the warranty but that is not too important right now.
What I`m trying to find out is has anyone had the same issue and why does it happen. Is there a way of me fixing it with a tuner by adjusting the timing of the engine ? Does it really mean there is engine damage or not ?
The bike has always been serviced at the dealer and is stock without any modifications and has been in my possession since it was new.
if it were me... i would
get a Mechanic's Stethoscope
https://www.harborfreight.com/catalo...nk%2Cf&q=69913
and endoscope
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ords=endoscope
to listen to the cylinders to see which one is making that noise, then look in that cylinder through the spark plug hole to look for major markings on the walls. put the bike in 5th gear and move the back wheel to get the piston to move( without the camera in the cylinder!) to check as much of the walls as possible.
https://www.harborfreight.com/catalo...nk%2Cf&q=69913
and endoscope
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ords=endoscope
to listen to the cylinders to see which one is making that noise, then look in that cylinder through the spark plug hole to look for major markings on the walls. put the bike in 5th gear and move the back wheel to get the piston to move( without the camera in the cylinder!) to check as much of the walls as possible.
Thread Starter
|
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: UK
Already done
Noise comes from both cylinders but more often from the back one.
The endoscope didn't show me anything apart from the fact that the back cylinder has a bit more carbon on it but nothing excessive nothing on the sides either.
Ive attached the only two photos i could find saved.
P.S.
Also attached the photos of the sparks as i was thinking the yellow one(back is a bit bad looking)
Noise comes from both cylinders but more often from the back one.
The endoscope didn't show me anything apart from the fact that the back cylinder has a bit more carbon on it but nothing excessive nothing on the sides either.
Ive attached the only two photos i could find saved.
P.S.
Also attached the photos of the sparks as i was thinking the yellow one(back is a bit bad looking)
Last edited by Mihail Petev; Mar 1, 2018 at 08:20 AM.
Thread Starter
|
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: UK
Hehe hopefully
P.S
It has been suggested to me that this might be piston/valve collisions and i must say googling it the noise is remarkably similar
P.S. 2
I did think about it a bit now and I must say as much as the sound is very similar to valve-piston hit it makes no physical sense to be that I dont see how that is going to be happening only when hot at certain rpm and why it would disappear with higher octane fuel. Like if it is on all the time when hot (might be some metal expansion properties) fine but it would not be rpm and load dependent then
P.S
It has been suggested to me that this might be piston/valve collisions and i must say googling it the noise is remarkably similar
P.S. 2
I did think about it a bit now and I must say as much as the sound is very similar to valve-piston hit it makes no physical sense to be that I dont see how that is going to be happening only when hot at certain rpm and why it would disappear with higher octane fuel. Like if it is on all the time when hot (might be some metal expansion properties) fine but it would not be rpm and load dependent then
Last edited by Mihail Petev; Mar 1, 2018 at 11:00 AM.
Road Captain
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 654
Likes: 734
What you've described is called "pinging" here in the US. It's kind of a rattly sound that happens under high load. Mostly people notice it in two conditions: pulling away from a dead stop, and applying throttle while in a higher gear. It'll also be more prevalent when the motor is hot, and in hot weather.
Fundamentally what's happening is that a portion of the fuel charge in the cylinder is being heated beyond it's autoignition temperature, and as a result it explodes instead of burning. This higher heat can come from too much cylinder pressure and/or carbon build-up that retains heat.
Excessive cylinder pressure can be caused by multiple things. Carbon build up can cause it, too much spark advance can cause it, and high loads placed on the engine can cause it.
Also, different fuels have different autoignition temperatures. The fuel's octane rating is a measurement of this. So higher octane fuel will make the pinging stop.
In terms of what you can do, here are some ideas. First, always run the highest octane gasoline you can access. Second, you might try colder spark plugs, like the 10R12's that were stock in Buells (part number 27661-00Y). Third, you can back out spark advance. On a 2015, the spark advance is controlled by a pair of tables in the ECM. If you have a flash tuner, you can access these tables and soften the spark advance curves. You can also richen the fuel mixture which might help. There's an AFR target table that you can access with the tuner.
If you do those things and you're still fighting ping, then you may have to go inside to remove carbon.
Good luck.
Fundamentally what's happening is that a portion of the fuel charge in the cylinder is being heated beyond it's autoignition temperature, and as a result it explodes instead of burning. This higher heat can come from too much cylinder pressure and/or carbon build-up that retains heat.
Excessive cylinder pressure can be caused by multiple things. Carbon build up can cause it, too much spark advance can cause it, and high loads placed on the engine can cause it.
Also, different fuels have different autoignition temperatures. The fuel's octane rating is a measurement of this. So higher octane fuel will make the pinging stop.
In terms of what you can do, here are some ideas. First, always run the highest octane gasoline you can access. Second, you might try colder spark plugs, like the 10R12's that were stock in Buells (part number 27661-00Y). Third, you can back out spark advance. On a 2015, the spark advance is controlled by a pair of tables in the ECM. If you have a flash tuner, you can access these tables and soften the spark advance curves. You can also richen the fuel mixture which might help. There's an AFR target table that you can access with the tuner.
If you do those things and you're still fighting ping, then you may have to go inside to remove carbon.
Good luck.
Thread Starter
|
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: UK
I thought so but then googling videos and speaking with people there seems to be a wild difference of what people call pinging.
The highest octane fuel to be honest as much as i would love to do it beyond my ability like normal 95 fuel is 1.30 EUR here and the highest one that i know doesnt ping is like 2.10 but that is because it has agents inside like its premixed with additives.
As for the tuner - that was actually my initial idea/thread I wanted to get a power vision anyhow so if it solved the current issue that might work.
I might be wrong but how would colder spark plugs help tho ? As I understand it if the temperature reached the point of autoignition the fuel will explode pretty much even without a plug in there.
The highest octane fuel to be honest as much as i would love to do it beyond my ability like normal 95 fuel is 1.30 EUR here and the highest one that i know doesnt ping is like 2.10 but that is because it has agents inside like its premixed with additives.
As for the tuner - that was actually my initial idea/thread I wanted to get a power vision anyhow so if it solved the current issue that might work.
I might be wrong but how would colder spark plugs help tho ? As I understand it if the temperature reached the point of autoignition the fuel will explode pretty much even without a plug in there.
Trending Topics
HDF Community Team
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 8,547
Likes: 3,974
From: San Diego, CA
Wait a minute. You said the dealer told you there was engine damage. What is the reason they said that? Do you have an extended warranty? Have you documented your contacts with the dealer?
The dealer said the timing was incorrect, that will cause pinging. Why did they not fix the timing issue? Long term pinging will damage your pistons for sure.
Your story seems very confusing. You need to assert yourself with the dealer and customer service people to get satisfaction.
Don't try to treat the symptoms, eliminate the cause.
John
The dealer said the timing was incorrect, that will cause pinging. Why did they not fix the timing issue? Long term pinging will damage your pistons for sure.
Your story seems very confusing. You need to assert yourself with the dealer and customer service people to get satisfaction.
Don't try to treat the symptoms, eliminate the cause.
John
Last edited by John Harper; Mar 1, 2018 at 12:15 PM.
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Verdad Gallardo
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026
Verdad Gallardo
Thread Starter
|
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: UK
Well they said they think there is angine damage but they dont know so they need to check everything and see.
The reason they think that is because the dyno test showed them something weird. They never said pinging tho they literally says they dont know.
Anyhow in terms of the contracts - yes I just searched them and turns out I took the bike out last year on the 6th of February and then I know i drove a very long distance pretty much right after and noticed it which give or take a few days means I first reported issues in February and the warranty expires in March so given that they will have to suck it up and deal with it.
I also called Harley actually and they said there is a very well established protocol for issues of this sort that they give to all their dealers so if i request assistance they cant really say no.
The reason they think that is because the dyno test showed them something weird. They never said pinging tho they literally says they dont know.
Anyhow in terms of the contracts - yes I just searched them and turns out I took the bike out last year on the 6th of February and then I know i drove a very long distance pretty much right after and noticed it which give or take a few days means I first reported issues in February and the warranty expires in March so given that they will have to suck it up and deal with it.
I also called Harley actually and they said there is a very well established protocol for issues of this sort that they give to all their dealers so if i request assistance they cant really say no.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 12,233
Likes: 4,943
From: England
If you have been using the same dealer and always had the bike serviced by them it is hard for them to try and back away from their responsibility especially if you reported the problem whilst the bike was in warranty.
As the bike is stock again I cannot see why they wouldn't just get on and resolve your problem.
I don't know how a dealer gets paid for warranty work which might be why they are dragging their feet but that is not your problem.
And over here on this side of the pond we call it pinking, pre detonation or knocking. Resolved with higher octane fuel as it has less of the explosive stuff that combusts at lower compression.
As the bike is stock again I cannot see why they wouldn't just get on and resolve your problem.
I don't know how a dealer gets paid for warranty work which might be why they are dragging their feet but that is not your problem.
And over here on this side of the pond we call it pinking, pre detonation or knocking. Resolved with higher octane fuel as it has less of the explosive stuff that combusts at lower compression.
Last edited by Andy from Sandy; Mar 1, 2018 at 12:33 PM.