DYNOJET: TT AT vs PV Basic AT
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Road Master
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 858
Likes: 140
From: USA
TT AT vs PV Basic AT
I've asked a couple of times for some feedback concerning whether there have been major/minor differences in VE values when they were mapped with narrow band sensors versus wide band sensors when auto tuning on the street.
I asked Dyno Dan (VP for Dyno Jet) and Jamie (Fuel Moto) the question in different posts.
Dan responded:
Originally Posted by Dyno Dan View Post
During tuning sessions, I think its wise to use an oxygen sensor thats capable of reading the complete range of AFRs that will ultimately be committed to your fuel table.
Ill spare you all the details of how the fixed 13.0 during an AT-Pro session came to be, but if youre interested perhaps we can throw together a test build of AT-Pro that leaves the AFR table alone (where possible). I think thats what everyones after, right?
Jamie didn't respond:
Jamie,
I realize this thread may have gotten a bit off topic, but I would still like to get your feedback on my question:
Originally Posted by fuelmoto:
Thank you for your feedback and we appreciate your utilizing our services. When you use the Auto Tune application; whether it is Basic, Pro or TT-AT it is correcting the VE table which represents the airflow model used for fuel delivery. Using AT generates corrections and allows you to export them back into your tune to optimize fuel delivery, whether you are in open & closed loop. Since VE is the primary lookup table for fuel delivery once established you are essentially customizing the VE tables for what your combination wants, TT will also correct the AF mixture in realtime (as will the factory O2's over a smaller region & limited AF). Once the spark and various other tables are attended to, your closed loop corrections are minimal, and the bike responds and performs to your liking you should be pretty well there in most application, and there is of course always the option of using a dyno for validating your calibration or for utilizing their services to put their final touches on the tune.
Jamie,
So what is the advantage of the TT? If the basic AT will map the VE tables accurately, why would I need the TT as an add on to make real time adjustments to my VE tables to achieve my target AFR? I just don't get it. If my VE tables are mapped accurately with the basic AT and are correct why would I need a TT to adjust them in real time? As you indicated above the factory O2 sensors/ECM will make slight corrections in the closed loop to my accurate VE tables.
I understand that the TT will make corrections to my (previous open loop) portions of my AFR table (something the narrow bands cannot do). I'm curious if you have ever mapped the open loop portions of an AFR table with the AT basic (narrow bands) and then gone back and re-mapped them with TT-AT or AT-Pro (wide bands). If you have, did you see any significant differences in the VE tables?
Thanks.
I want to know why the basic AT won't work for mapping VE tables and if (you guys) Dan or Jamie have any data that support that it doesn't work. Why would I purchase the TT if the basic PV AT will map the VE tables accurately?
Why can't you guys just answer a question and provide some data to support your response? Either the AT basic works for mapping VE tables or it doesn't. If it doesn't, I'm sure one of you has some data that you can post to show that it doesn't. Why do I need to purchase the TT?
I asked Dyno Dan (VP for Dyno Jet) and Jamie (Fuel Moto) the question in different posts.
Dan responded:
Originally Posted by Dyno Dan View Post
During tuning sessions, I think its wise to use an oxygen sensor thats capable of reading the complete range of AFRs that will ultimately be committed to your fuel table.
Ill spare you all the details of how the fixed 13.0 during an AT-Pro session came to be, but if youre interested perhaps we can throw together a test build of AT-Pro that leaves the AFR table alone (where possible). I think thats what everyones after, right?
Jamie didn't respond:
Jamie,
I realize this thread may have gotten a bit off topic, but I would still like to get your feedback on my question:
Originally Posted by fuelmoto:
Thank you for your feedback and we appreciate your utilizing our services. When you use the Auto Tune application; whether it is Basic, Pro or TT-AT it is correcting the VE table which represents the airflow model used for fuel delivery. Using AT generates corrections and allows you to export them back into your tune to optimize fuel delivery, whether you are in open & closed loop. Since VE is the primary lookup table for fuel delivery once established you are essentially customizing the VE tables for what your combination wants, TT will also correct the AF mixture in realtime (as will the factory O2's over a smaller region & limited AF). Once the spark and various other tables are attended to, your closed loop corrections are minimal, and the bike responds and performs to your liking you should be pretty well there in most application, and there is of course always the option of using a dyno for validating your calibration or for utilizing their services to put their final touches on the tune.
Jamie,
So what is the advantage of the TT? If the basic AT will map the VE tables accurately, why would I need the TT as an add on to make real time adjustments to my VE tables to achieve my target AFR? I just don't get it. If my VE tables are mapped accurately with the basic AT and are correct why would I need a TT to adjust them in real time? As you indicated above the factory O2 sensors/ECM will make slight corrections in the closed loop to my accurate VE tables.
I understand that the TT will make corrections to my (previous open loop) portions of my AFR table (something the narrow bands cannot do). I'm curious if you have ever mapped the open loop portions of an AFR table with the AT basic (narrow bands) and then gone back and re-mapped them with TT-AT or AT-Pro (wide bands). If you have, did you see any significant differences in the VE tables?
Thanks.
I want to know why the basic AT won't work for mapping VE tables and if (you guys) Dan or Jamie have any data that support that it doesn't work. Why would I purchase the TT if the basic PV AT will map the VE tables accurately?
Why can't you guys just answer a question and provide some data to support your response? Either the AT basic works for mapping VE tables or it doesn't. If it doesn't, I'm sure one of you has some data that you can post to show that it doesn't. Why do I need to purchase the TT?
Tourer
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 264
Likes: 10
From: NC
I think what they are saying from what I can tell is. The auto tune pro and the target tune using wide band O2 sensors will set the VE tables over a wider spectrum than the factory narrow band sensors. The factory sensors can only read an Afr of 14.6 to about 15.3 just a round about figure. The wide band sensors go from I think 10. Something to 18. Something afr. So I would think you would get a more accurate VE table to match your stoich afr table. And the wide band sensors will work faster with less auto tune sessions. That's just my guess. Don't take that info to heart.I may not be correct.
Ps: the factory sensors do change the VE tables in auto tune basic.
Ps: the factory sensors do change the VE tables in auto tune basic.
Last edited by ejwmiller; Jun 18, 2016 at 09:26 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 27
From: Australia
i think a forum sponsor the other day showed that AT- basic was quite sufficient and results verified with "independent" wide band O2 sensors
from that info provided I doubt if I will buy the AT-PRo or TT any time unless get for a red hot price
from that info provided I doubt if I will buy the AT-PRo or TT any time unless get for a red hot price
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Here is how close I got with my Sportster with just the widebands. On the left is the target AFR and on the right is the actual AFR.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/PVTune/WidebandSporty02.jpg
http://www.nbs-stl.com/PVTune/WidebandSporty02.jpg
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Here is the same motor shown at the same scale running Target Tune.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/PVTune/TT%20T...0Act%20AFR.png
Here is what it looks like when you tighten up the AFR scale really tight. That is impressive and to think this bike is TPS based tuning.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/PVTune/TT%20T...oomed%20In.png
The Actual AFR is almost perfect when compared to my Target AFRs.
Andy
http://www.nbs-stl.com/PVTune/TT%20T...0Act%20AFR.png
Here is what it looks like when you tighten up the AFR scale really tight. That is impressive and to think this bike is TPS based tuning.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/PVTune/TT%20T...oomed%20In.png
The Actual AFR is almost perfect when compared to my Target AFRs.
Andy
Last edited by whittlebeast; Jun 19, 2016 at 06:51 AM.
Intermediate
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 49
Likes: 55
From: Madison, Ga
I want to know why the basic AT won't work for mapping VE tables and if (you guys) Dan or Jamie have any data that support that it doesn't work. Why would I purchase the TT if the basic PV AT will map the VE tables accurately?
Why can't you guys just answer a question and provide some data to support your response? Either the AT basic works for mapping VE tables or it doesn't. If it doesn't, I'm sure one of you has some data that you can post to show that it doesn't. Why do I need to purchase the TT?
Why can't you guys just answer a question and provide some data to support your response? Either the AT basic works for mapping VE tables or it doesn't. If it doesn't, I'm sure one of you has some data that you can post to show that it doesn't. Why do I need to purchase the TT?
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 804
Likes: 237
From: TN
Oleboy, from my point of view, it is an option. There are thousands upon thousands of bikes running around tuned on the PV. It depends on you, and what you want. We all know that the sensors (nb) limit how rich you can go, we have also heard/learned that the pro tuners have no issues with running the nb's, although they have the equipment to finish off the areas the basic can't get to. You can get hundreds of opinions but it all boils down to what you want/need. I got it to experiment with different afr's. Running .966, quite pleased. Engine seems to a little cooler, but how much cooler than .977 I couldn't document. I still get 40 to 42 mpg consistently. For me it works fine, no complaints. Can you justify the cost, vs the gain, that is something only you will be able to answer if you get it. If not be happy with what you are using.
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Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Here is what my CLIs looked like once three rides are combined.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/PVTune/TT%20Target%20CLI.png
Keep in mind that this is a TPS based tune.
Andy
http://www.nbs-stl.com/PVTune/TT%20Target%20CLI.png
Keep in mind that this is a TPS based tune.
Andy
Last edited by whittlebeast; Jun 19, 2016 at 10:27 AM.
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Andy,
Please feel free to circle and point to the obvious differences and helps us read the pictures you post.
When you merely state what the pictures represent you assume everyone can see the same issues in the picture you do so it would be very helpful if you could pinpoint the differences and what was do to fix the tuning issues.
Thanks again,
Bob
PS - I believe I and others have asked you more than once to pinpoint your references and comparisons by using something like a paint program to circle and point to your points. Lol
Please feel free to circle and point to the obvious differences and helps us read the pictures you post.
When you merely state what the pictures represent you assume everyone can see the same issues in the picture you do so it would be very helpful if you could pinpoint the differences and what was do to fix the tuning issues.
Thanks again,
Bob
PS - I believe I and others have asked you more than once to pinpoint your references and comparisons by using something like a paint program to circle and point to your points. Lol
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Bob, With such a vague question, I am having a little trouble figuring out where I am loosing you. The color of each dot represents an AFR. On the right is the reference or scale that the color represents. Lots of blue dots in and area would indicate a pattern of rich. A clear pattern of lean would come up red. A few random dots are ignorable as not enough data to see a clear pattern.
In this example, identical color patterns on both sides is perfection on the fueling side of things,
In this example, identical color patterns on both sides is perfection on the fueling side of things,