No Device: HD/Delphi EFI Tuning Basics
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 27
From: Australia
just following Steve's thread, members are questioning these significant issues that have been highlighted and now looking for feed back on them (as outlined in the first post the discussion is relevant to all tuning devices)
the data Gordon posted is at idle, see pg19 for more info
the data Gordon posted is at idle, see pg19 for more info
Last edited by mirrmu; Aug 16, 2016 at 03:50 AM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
Gordon, were you able to recreate the circumstances that created the event and verify that The PV AT did indeed correct it? As you know, the devil is in the details. The Delphi ION sensing system does occasionally create or report a non-event as an event. Nature of the beast.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
Not all tuners can capture logs so maybe the general idea is to do your tuning, and verify with any other tools you may have, if any. The pro's have wideband and narrowband sensors they can compare for example. The DIY types can certainly use logs to get an idea how close the tune seems to be, but as discussed above, the question of sample rate and how such logs are created may raise a touch of doubt in what "exactly" they mean/show.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,019
Likes: 599
From: Columbus, OH
Not all tuners can capture logs so maybe the general idea is to do your tuning, and verify with any other tools you may have, if any. The pro's have wideband and narrowband sensors they can compare for example. The DIY types can certainly use logs to get an idea how close the tune seems to be, but as discussed above, the question of sample rate and how such logs are created may raise a touch of doubt in what "exactly" they mean/show.
Last edited by Fat11Lo; Aug 16, 2016 at 05:11 PM.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,019
Likes: 599
From: Columbus, OH
Are they issues? This is a PV log off a tuned bike. Does PV filter out this data? Does PV use this data? How are their filters set up? How is it set up in their auto tune to address this? Sounds like questions for DJ, because I can't see Steve caring. Why would he want to fix their stuff? This thread is a DH/Delphi Tuning Basic thread about basics. Not a particular tuning device.
People wanted to see skewed data, and how that data looks. BAM, there it is, and thank you Gordon for putting it up.
Even though it is OT. I can tell you what I would do. First I would see if the PW match's what the O2's are seeing. Then I would sample with widebands while sampling with the narrow bands to see if I can verify the narrow bands. Then I would take the data I collected with the WB's and hand create a VE table in this area. Compare my hand VE's to AT VE's, and test again. That's right. I wouldn't use the AT that got me here in the first place, because doing the same thing will get me the same result. If my hand VE's were better. I have a choice. Leave them with hand created VE's and run that area in open loop or try and get the sampling better with the narrow bands.
Basic tuning 101
Even though it is OT. I can tell you what I would do. First I would see if the PW match's what the O2's are seeing. Then I would sample with widebands while sampling with the narrow bands to see if I can verify the narrow bands. Then I would take the data I collected with the WB's and hand create a VE table in this area. Compare my hand VE's to AT VE's, and test again. That's right. I wouldn't use the AT that got me here in the first place, because doing the same thing will get me the same result. If my hand VE's were better. I have a choice. Leave them with hand created VE's and run that area in open loop or try and get the sampling better with the narrow bands.
Basic tuning 101
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
I don't know how DJ processes their data, but using tuners on other things besides motorcycles. I have learned that these things need to be set up in order to take out the junk data. Some tuners give you nothing and let you figure out all the PID's.
For example in Gordons log. O2 drops out but there really isn't an indication that it is going that lean. So, you filter out the data that does go that lean. All HD flash base tuners do this. Ever collect NB data and you are trying to hold a cell and O2's never come on line in some areas but you get data in the others? Wash that log through and some of the VE is changed and some isn't. Blend the cells that didn't get changed by the cells that did get changed so they are close and run again. Then all cells are getting hits. They just don't let things run wild. If they did there would be no reason to throw codes associated w/ O2 sensors.
Does all this need to be understood to tune a bike with these devices. 90% of the time. I would say no. But when things aren't going as planned. The better understanding of what is all going on will never hurt.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
Just to go back to your why log kind of question
I'm dead chuffed with how mine is running in general but I have one small thingy left that (because I'm a really fussy and pedantic sod) I'd like to fix or at least know why it does it ...THAT is the only reason I'm still playing and running a few logs.
For me, logs are an analysis tool, rather than a reporting tool ...if that makes sense
For me, logs are an analysis tool, rather than a reporting tool ...if that makes sense
Last edited by Gordon61; Aug 17, 2016 at 07:10 PM.
Advanced
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 92
Likes: 25
From: SW Florida
Wow, so glad I found this thread. Finally getting some good insight on the ECM, add-on code, sampling, etc.
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Thread Starter
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HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,494
Likes: 4,784
just following Steve's thread, members are questioning these significant issues that have been highlighted and now looking for feed back on them (as outlined in the first post the discussion is relevant to all tuning devices)
the data Gordon posted is at idle, see pg19 for more info
the data Gordon posted is at idle, see pg19 for more info
Thread Starter
|
HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,494
Likes: 4,784
Just to go back to your why log kind of question
I'm dead chuffed with how mine is running in general but I have one small thingy left that (because I'm a really fussy and pedantic sod) I'd like to fix or at least know why it does it ...THAT is the only reason I'm still playing and running a few logs.
For me, logs are an analysis tool, rather than a reporting tool ...if that makes sense
I'm dead chuffed with how mine is running in general but I have one small thingy left that (because I'm a really fussy and pedantic sod) I'd like to fix or at least know why it does it ...THAT is the only reason I'm still playing and running a few logs.
For me, logs are an analysis tool, rather than a reporting tool ...if that makes sense
Here is a little data that I recorded on a 2016 CVO with a 117 kit installed. One log is cold start and about 10 minutes of continuous idle. As you will see in the data it never went into EITMS as its a water cooled bike. This data runs about 18 fps. I then stopped the data and switch to a data collection that runs about 28 fps and got about 10 minutes more data. You can compare these two logs and see the differences between recording at different speeds and how the data appears to be different, yet it is the same data on the same bike. As for the bike I never turned it off, only switched the data and data rate between the two recordings. The two recording are recording different data but they both contain O2 sensor readings for you to compare as well as other things.