TTS: Milwaukee 8 Testing
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 482
Likes: 30
From: Michigan/Florida
Steve: There's an interview on the Baggers magazine website with a couple of HD people. In discussing the new engine one of them states that it's now a "torque based ECM". I can only assume that means a big flat torque curve is the priority over horsepower, but in trying to understand how this is achieved ... any thoughts?
Steve: There's an interview on the Baggers magazine website with a couple of HD people. In discussing the new engine one of them states that it's now a "torque based ECM". I can only assume that means a big flat torque curve is the priority over horsepower, but in trying to understand how this is achieved ... any thoughts?
"switch" put in the new calibrations that will allow us to use VE tables as far as tuning is concerned. Most of the automotive industry uses torgqu managed calibrations and not VE calibrations. Hopefully Steve will be able to get more in-depth.
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HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
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Torque based is how automotive ECM's have been done for years. In basic terms it means that the pedal or twist grip in the case of a HD request from the ECM for an amount of torque to be delivered from the engine. The ECM then determines how to do it. One of the biggest reasons for doing this is that it allows for many other items to request torque to be raised or lower, to aid the power application. In the case of ABS brakes if it sense's wheel slip the ABS can request torque to be lowered until the slip is gone. If the BCM see's too much torque it may request it to be lower for the clutch and so on. Traction control is another big user of torque controls. So there are many things that come into play and tuning will be forever changed in th eHD world if the tuner have to learn to work with it, as it is now. We are working on it so the calibrations we create will allow the same old way of tuning to be used, but rest assured that may not last forever. So people (tuners) are going to have to get smarter and more test equipment will be needed to operate and tune torque based systems in the future.
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 482
Likes: 30
From: Michigan/Florida
Thanks for taking time out to answer this, Steve. I'm currently searching using " torque based ECM control theory" and have found some papers that describe in general theory what you just outlined . Again, thanks!
edit.. my first reaction on looking at some of the papers is " Oops - there goes the current way of re-tuning, unless you've got an engine lab in your back pocket..."
edit.. my first reaction on looking at some of the papers is " Oops - there goes the current way of re-tuning, unless you've got an engine lab in your back pocket..."
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 19,863
Likes: 7,981
From: poway
Thanks for taking time out to answer this, Steve. I'm currently searching using " torque based ECM control theory" and have found some papers that describe in general theory what you just outlined . Again, thanks!
edit.. my first reaction on looking at some of the papers is " Oops - there goes the current way of re-tuning, unless you've got an engine lab in your back pocket..."
edit.. my first reaction on looking at some of the papers is " Oops - there goes the current way of re-tuning, unless you've got an engine lab in your back pocket..."
I'm sure Steve is up to it.. You'll a dyno and someone to load the bike and push the start button..
Torque managed is a completely different theory of tuning. Is all mathematics. For now there needs to be a Switch built into the calibration to open up VE tables. As,long as,people like Steve are able to build in the switches things will be business as usual. If that ability go away all bets are off. HD has, the switches built into the SEPST and ST calibrations for the 17 models but the stock calibrations are torque based
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HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
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Just for the record, there is a team of people here at TTS that make all this possible. Each of us play our part in getting the software done. It's not a one man show and I do it all that is for sure. We keep working at improving what we already have to try and keep things as simple as we can for it to be used.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
I don't mean to put a damper on things but
when
And there is or we want a switch in the calibration so that we can retrograde the latest and greatest back to the old way that we know ...kinda like chucking a carb on because we don't know EFI ??
I've never seen a definitive answer to whether MAP based VE table modelling was better than TPS based VE modelling ...now we are getting torque base modelling
If it's good enough for F1 cars then I'll have that please
But this is likely to shoot DIY tuning out of the water unless people start developing generic maps (like the stock ones), or a Dyno is involved to map the actual torque curves presumably ??
when
And there is or we want a switch in the calibration so that we can retrograde the latest and greatest back to the old way that we know ...kinda like chucking a carb on because we don't know EFI ??
I've never seen a definitive answer to whether MAP based VE table modelling was better than TPS based VE modelling ...now we are getting torque base modelling
If it's good enough for F1 cars then I'll have that please
But this is likely to shoot DIY tuning out of the water unless people start developing generic maps (like the stock ones), or a Dyno is involved to map the actual torque curves presumably ??