Because buying a Harley makes sound financial sense .. .......... ...:-? :-?

I like it and that is what counts.

Dudes ride what you like , screw the rest

 

I wouldnt say its only the EPA thats driving this change. There's only so much power that can be generated by an air cooled engine before it gets too hot to be practical.

Given todays displacement and torque arms race, I dont think they have much of a choice.

 

You know they're talking bad about you guys, in this thread:

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/off-t...rned-legs.html

 

Keithhu brought up a good point about the money it costs to get into a 993 Porsche. Big bucks! It would be interesting to see what would happen to the price of used air cooled Harleys if all the new ones went to a full water cooled motor. Also, I'd like to see sales numbers if Harley, let's say, water cooled the entire motor of an FLHTK and had a FLHTC with no water cooling for sale.

 

Similar to the radiator on the Honda Valkyrie (1997 to 200?) ??

 

My last bike, a Honda Shadow Sabre, was water cooled. It was WAY hotter on that bike sitting at a stop light when the damn cooling fan kicked in, blowing that hot air up to the chest and face of the rider! On the Harley, the heat is more "directed" at my legs and ***, which are always covered with jeans, so they don't feel it "hot" as much.
Now, prior to buying the SGS, I test rode EVERYTHING. Kawi Nomad and Vaquero, Honda GW and the chopped GW, Indian, Vic CC, Star Stratoliner. MOST of those I mentioned were slightly cheaper in price point, with much worse fit and finish. More plastic. Some were water cooled, some air cooled. ALL got hot. The Harley had better looks, feel and was more polished. A ton more option to make the bike mine with options and upgrades, MOCO or aftermarket. Less rattle than some, better ergonomics than most (for me). I would say that when comparing everything about all the bikes I test rode, the Harley most of the time fell into the upper middle of the pack, and surpassed them all in the few areas that concerned me most. That is why I picked a Harley. Being the coolest running or having the biggest engine were not why I picked it, but because it checked off the areas that fit me.

Someday you guys should read up on the Nomad / Vaquero heat issues and go to the Kawi forums. Now those guys were literally getting COOKED for awhile until the found a better way to redirect the heat.

 

The EPA is to powerful right now, I hope the next President has a little more commonsense.

 

Contrary to what has been said by some, the new engines outperform the old ones by a wide margin. It's more than just numbers - they just flat out work better. I have a very nice running Evo bike that I am enjoying immensely. I expect to keep it long after I have sold and bought many twin cam bikes. That said, my 2014 SGS is night and day the "better" motorcycle. Faster. Handles better. More comfortable. Etc, etc. You can hop off of any competitors motorcycle and onto the new Harley touring bikes and not feel like you just sat on a time machine back to 1950. Harley has totally leveled the (performance) playing field with the new bikes. If they want to keep that pace with the other's, they will have to continue to evolve, and that will include water cooling.

Why do they want to keep pace and not just make 57 Chevys? It's a paradigm shift as well as a shifting demographic. New Harley owners want a bike that is easy to ride, performs well, but retains the HD heritage. The Moco is doing a pretty good job of that and will continue to make better and better bikes while retaining their core value of "heritage". And while they appreciate the old school guys (and they really do), they can't run a business built around guys who want to keep their Evos.

PS - the last air-cooled Porsche was in 1998. Just sayin.

 

Yes, with all due respect, some folks really don't know what they are talking about. If Harley is way way behind the power curve, then why is every other motorcycle manufacturer building Harley Look-a-likes? Why did Polaris "Just" come out with a water-cooled V-twin? Who is chasing who? As for a water cooled engine, Harley has been selling the V-Rod since 2001. They know and understand water-cooled engines.

The reason MOCO was struggling (and struggling is a relative term with stock holders) in 2009 had nothing to do with the air-cooled V-twin engine, it had to do with over production in a bad economy and not shutting down most of the plants to wait for things to turn around. All the other manufacturers had the same problem, but their foreign ownership covered the downturn. But, take note that Honda actually took the Goldwing factory out of the US.

Harley and Indian V-Twins are meeting all present and future EPA regulations. So that’s not it. let’s consider pragmatically some facts to what is being suggested here: Harley has been the top motorcycle manufacturer in the US for almost all the last 25 years. That means they are beating Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Triumph, BMW, and a few others. Why? What does Harley have that the majority of motorcycle riders want?

Also consider a poll by Harley a few years ago which showed that 8% of Harley owners put more than 1800 miles a year on their bikes. Eight percent! That means 92% of Harleys spend a lot of time in the garage. Why? And lets consider that for their class, Harley is one of the most expensive choices out there. Some folks say all things equal, Harley is competitive. Yea their competitive, at the high end of the market. An Ultra is a $30,000 motorcycle. Who else sells a $30,000 touring bike? Well Honda and BMW if you get all the bells and whistles. Indian happens to have a $30,000 pretty much out of the box. Why are folks paying that kind of money for a silly air-cooled V-twin that is hot to ride and on the slow end competitive wise?

So with all the wonderful water-cooled BMWs, Goldwings, Triumphs: why is the air cooled V-twin dominating the market?

I’m trying to be pragmatic. Harley may well eventually build a water-cooled engine, but it will be very very risky because the vast majority of Harley owners bought the bike for the air-cooled v-twin. Including me. Once Harley commits to water-cooled, what sets them apart with the others? Nothing. Except for Indian, the Indian forums are just giddy because they think their motorcycle is going kick Harley around in the market. They have the right bike, they just need some leverage, like Harley giving up the air-cooled V-twin.

Honestly, I’m a motorcycle guy. I like most motorcycles, not just Harleys. But I do like the nostalgic style bikes that appeals to all my senses and my soul as well. I have an Yamaha FJR I ride for speed and performance, I ride my Harleys (I have two), I’m at peace. And I think that is why most Harley riders pay that premium price for a bike that doesn’t perform quite as well as the much cheaper metrics.


So I ask, if Harley gets rid of the water-cooled V-twin, why would you own a Harley? Me right now, I wouldn’t. I would keep my trusty Evo that makes me smile every time I pull the choke and fire her up. I will probably keep my comfortable 09 RKC because it is the one bike my wife will ride with me and it is fun to add chrome. But, if Harley goes water-cooled, I see an Indian in my future.

Beary

 

My own opinion and thoughts.

The last emissions standards for large motorcycles went into effect in 2010. Harley met those. There are no impending later standards, nor are there any draft revisions in legislation.

Basic engineering, a water cooled engine has a more uniform combustion chamber temperature and more power and performance can be gained via a water cooled engine than via an air cooled engine. This is the basic reason so many dirt bikes and such went water cooled. Yes, the engine is heavier and more complex. The power gains outweigh those penalties in the minds of the manufacturers and most riders.

The latter is the primary reason I can see Harley ultimately going water cooled, while doing everything possible to keep the illusion of being air cooled. Harley is about at the limit of performance for an air cooled engine. Resultingly, Harley is at the back of the pack when it comes to power and performance when compared to the other heavy cruisers on the market. This performance gap will expand as long as Harley stays air cooled.

While there are still manufacturers of air cooled motorcycles, IMZ-Ural, Royal Enfield, these are niche market bikes, occupying a tiny portion of the overall motorcycle market. I do not see Harley having any desire to relegate themselves to niche marketing.