So! Why Harley?
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Grand HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Edmond Oklahoma
So! Why Harley?
We had another couple of threads last week of riders predicting that Harley will inevitably go to full water-cooled engines. Why?
That seems to fly in the face of Harley being the number one motorcycle manufacturer in North America using a Vtwin Air-cooled engine. Harley says their engines meet EPA rules, so there is no big bother out there with a big stick forcing Harley to change. Polaris invested millions to produce an Air-cooled Vtwin Nostalgic motorcycle to pry itself into Harleys success. So that doesn’t make sense either.
I'm not trying to start heated debate of air-cooled vs liquid cooled engines. I just don't get it. It is a fact that over 90% of Harley owners ride less than 1800 miles a year. Those owners didn't buy performance, they bought nostalgia. Not that a Harley can’t go 50,000 miles a year, it certainly can.
What is not clear in my mind is why some folks want a water-cooled Harley when there are so many water cooled bikes to fit their desired riding style. It’s not as if Harley’s are cheaper, on average the Harley is the most expensive bike on the market beating out Gold Wings and BMWs (Indian might be more now). And it’s not as if Harley is the best performing bike, Harley typically is in the middle to back of the pack when it comes to performance.
The nostalgic Harley appeals to the soul. That includes the Vtwin Air-cooled engine. So why are some people so desperate for a water-cooled Harley when there are so many other bikes they can choose that perform more to their desires and likely at a cheaper price? Can somebody explain it? WHY HARLEY? Why a Water-cooled Harley?
Beary
That seems to fly in the face of Harley being the number one motorcycle manufacturer in North America using a Vtwin Air-cooled engine. Harley says their engines meet EPA rules, so there is no big bother out there with a big stick forcing Harley to change. Polaris invested millions to produce an Air-cooled Vtwin Nostalgic motorcycle to pry itself into Harleys success. So that doesn’t make sense either.
I'm not trying to start heated debate of air-cooled vs liquid cooled engines. I just don't get it. It is a fact that over 90% of Harley owners ride less than 1800 miles a year. Those owners didn't buy performance, they bought nostalgia. Not that a Harley can’t go 50,000 miles a year, it certainly can.
What is not clear in my mind is why some folks want a water-cooled Harley when there are so many water cooled bikes to fit their desired riding style. It’s not as if Harley’s are cheaper, on average the Harley is the most expensive bike on the market beating out Gold Wings and BMWs (Indian might be more now). And it’s not as if Harley is the best performing bike, Harley typically is in the middle to back of the pack when it comes to performance.
The nostalgic Harley appeals to the soul. That includes the Vtwin Air-cooled engine. So why are some people so desperate for a water-cooled Harley when there are so many other bikes they can choose that perform more to their desires and likely at a cheaper price? Can somebody explain it? WHY HARLEY? Why a Water-cooled Harley?
Beary
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 6,322
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From: Tennessee
Because the newer big inch/low performance motors are so choked down with smog crap and run so lean that they get very very hot.
The EPA will force the change to water cooled at some point in the future with draconian pollution control rules.
I will ride my carbed Dyna and My carbed FXR until the day I die rather than any of this "new junk".
The EPA will force the change to water cooled at some point in the future with draconian pollution control rules.
I will ride my carbed Dyna and My carbed FXR until the day I die rather than any of this "new junk".
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Grand HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Edmond Oklahoma
Still that doesn't answer Why Harley when there are other bikes out there.
Beary
Road Warrior
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 246
From: Columbia SC
EPA doesn't force engine designs, just limits to air quality. And maybe that is the myth so many people have bought into. An engine must be water-cooled to not polute. Not true of course, but it does seem folks are buying into that myth.
Still that doesn't answer Why Harley when there are other bikes out there.
Beary
Still that doesn't answer Why Harley when there are other bikes out there.
Beary
They do force engine designs through regulations. EPA mandates a AFR of 14.7 on motorcycle gasoline engines and Catalytic Converters which in turn makes for one hot running engine and super hot exhaust.
This forces design changes, to best mange heat and keep the rider from cooking off his own exhaust.
Liquid cooling does help manage the lean burn conditions very well, it can be precisely controlled. Air cooled a bit more tricky but HD and Indian, as well as the metrics proves it can be done.
The problem with all model late bikes, weather air cooled or liquid cooled is no matter what method chosen, it does not change the temperature of the hot exhaust gasses.
Exhaust gas temp is about 500 degrees, no matter how the engine is cooled. So we are down to how the bike makers manage and route the heat from the exhaust system to stop the riders legs from cooking at all speeds. Im not sure its possible unless one kills the CATS and puts on an XIED or equivalent to slightly enrich the AFR.
Even so with that done, as I have found out, yes without question it has stopped the calf of my right leg from turning red but one must not think all heat will be gone.
Last edited by alarmdoug; Jun 15, 2015 at 09:30 AM.
Senior Rider
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 251
Likes: 12
From: Vancouver Canada
Why Harley
Short answer? I don't know!
I think there's 2 questions there. Why would Harley change, and why keep buying Harley.
Harley has to change to more of a water cooled system because a huge number of police departments went back to Harley after the disasters of the Japanese bikes years ago, and they're leaving again. Why? In the hotter climes, many officers complain about the heat as engine size grows. Remember that gasoline burning produces heat as a primary product, NOT engine power. Second reason, is consumers - look at HOG, the Harley stock. Dumped like a stone when the earning results and the forward guidance were just brutal last time.
Younger consumers (to replace people like me, I'm 70) want a different ride. Those different rides are overwhelmingly foreign, and water-cooled. If better cooled is want they want, Harley needs to give it to them.
I bought my present bike at a PRICE point. I wanted a long distance touring bike, and I got this one on a deal from out-of-country. I really like it, but if I had gotten a Victory with the same equipment at a lower price, or a touring BMW, I could have gone that way too. Maybe not without some soul searching, but still .....
Look at the reason WHY Harley stock dropped: US dollar strength supported foreign manufacturers importing vehicles into the country, so dealers can discount their units - and they ARE good quality. Plus, the CEO said on the conference call they weren't going to discount so the factory is interested in keeping THEIR margins, so the dealers have to take it out of their profit to make a competitive deal. That's their problems.
I can't afford a new bike, so for me it's not an issue, but for someone looking for a new motorcycle in the size I like, tell me WHY I would buy Harley rather than anything else - and please don't give me jingoistic krap about buying American since the Harley is 50+% sourced elsewhere.
I think there's 2 questions there. Why would Harley change, and why keep buying Harley.
Harley has to change to more of a water cooled system because a huge number of police departments went back to Harley after the disasters of the Japanese bikes years ago, and they're leaving again. Why? In the hotter climes, many officers complain about the heat as engine size grows. Remember that gasoline burning produces heat as a primary product, NOT engine power. Second reason, is consumers - look at HOG, the Harley stock. Dumped like a stone when the earning results and the forward guidance were just brutal last time.
Younger consumers (to replace people like me, I'm 70) want a different ride. Those different rides are overwhelmingly foreign, and water-cooled. If better cooled is want they want, Harley needs to give it to them.
I bought my present bike at a PRICE point. I wanted a long distance touring bike, and I got this one on a deal from out-of-country. I really like it, but if I had gotten a Victory with the same equipment at a lower price, or a touring BMW, I could have gone that way too. Maybe not without some soul searching, but still .....
Look at the reason WHY Harley stock dropped: US dollar strength supported foreign manufacturers importing vehicles into the country, so dealers can discount their units - and they ARE good quality. Plus, the CEO said on the conference call they weren't going to discount so the factory is interested in keeping THEIR margins, so the dealers have to take it out of their profit to make a competitive deal. That's their problems.
I can't afford a new bike, so for me it's not an issue, but for someone looking for a new motorcycle in the size I like, tell me WHY I would buy Harley rather than anything else - and please don't give me jingoistic krap about buying American since the Harley is 50+% sourced elsewhere.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 6,322
Likes: 2,500
From: Tennessee
EPA doesn't force engine designs, just limits to air quality. And maybe that is the myth so many people have bought into. An engine must be water-cooled to not polute. Not true of course, but it does seem folks are buying into that myth.
Still that doesn't answer Why Harley when there are other bikes out there.
Beary
Still that doesn't answer Why Harley when there are other bikes out there.
Beary
I've always had Harleys and I know how to wrench on them and have all of the "specialty" tools I need to work on them.
I had a BMW K100 and didn't like it much.
I have ridden my friend's Gold Wing, might as well get a car.
I rode a friends Victory....No thanks!
I like some of the Triumph offerings....but not enough to want to own one.
I had a Kawasaki Concourse for a while...Not a comfortable ride.
The metric cruisers aren't any better than what they are trying to imitate and are in many cases worse!
I agree that it is possible to build an air cooled engine that will conform to more and more stringent smog rules, but it will require greater cooling surfaces (read bigger fins) and will make the motors look substantially different then they are now.
Years ago, Harley wanted to build an overhead cam motor and their customer base wasn't interested in buying it because it seems that most "Harley riders" think that a motor without pushrods is somehow "not a Harley".
Harley will try as hard as they can to continue to build a motor that "looks like a Harley motor" and if that requires some half assed cooling system for the heads, that they can hide in the fairing lowers, they'll do it because that seems to be what their customer base demands.
As I said before, I'll just stick with the tried and true bikes that I have and watch as Harley renders itself more and more obsolete as noise/smog regs change.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 17,145
Likes: 6,168
From: SE Michigan
That ended in 1997. (go try to buy a used 97 or earlier in good condition - $$$)
Bottom line is that there are many many benefits of being liquid cooled.
Not the least of which is that it allows for an increase in compression. More compression = more heat, and I think we're pretty much at the upper end of heat in the current air cooled designs.
Personally I wish they would just make the complete leap (current rushmore is liquid cooled heads) and be done with it.
We'll all survive.
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Club Member
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Personally, I like the simplistic air cooled engine on my Harley. If others don't, instead of complaining about it, why don't they buy a different brand. If I don't like Brand A trucks for some reason I would buy a brand that has what I want or doesn't have what I don't like. If you want to ride a Harley just to be in the club but don't actually like them, maybe you should move on. Just my two cents.
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Joined: Sep 2010
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From: Phoenix '53, '88, '09 Big Twins
a liquid cooled motor can make better power- tolerances can be tighter for a longer running, more powerful and less polluting motor.
The tolerances can be tighter as expansion of the mating parts in the motor is less extreme, in an air/oil cooled motor the fits of all the parts is sloppy when cold. this slop will contribute to wear over time.
Controlled combustion chamber temperatures can allow a wider range of ignition curves and higher compression
a "water jacket" will also help to control noise emissions ( how many new riders are confused by the sound of the valvetrain)
compare any vehicle of today with one of 40 years ago- we get much better result for our money now.
( I have old motorcycles and cars- and they are fun- but I also like the economy, power and function of newer vehicles)
mike
The tolerances can be tighter as expansion of the mating parts in the motor is less extreme, in an air/oil cooled motor the fits of all the parts is sloppy when cold. this slop will contribute to wear over time.
Controlled combustion chamber temperatures can allow a wider range of ignition curves and higher compression
a "water jacket" will also help to control noise emissions ( how many new riders are confused by the sound of the valvetrain)
compare any vehicle of today with one of 40 years ago- we get much better result for our money now.
( I have old motorcycles and cars- and they are fun- but I also like the economy, power and function of newer vehicles)
mike
Last edited by mkguitar; Jun 15, 2015 at 10:13 AM.
Cruiser
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 214
Likes: 5
From: RVA
I 2nd the Porsche comment. They took the air cooled flat 6 as far as they could go. Modern naturally aspirated 911's make more horsepower than their air cooled turbocharged counterparts.
Personally I think it would be cool to see either engine offered in a bike. You could either get the air cooled engine for "nostalgia" or get a sweet direct injected liquid cooled engine.
Personally I think it would be cool to see either engine offered in a bike. You could either get the air cooled engine for "nostalgia" or get a sweet direct injected liquid cooled engine.