TMax or PC?
TMax or PC?
Ok I am going to have new cams, exhaust and air intake and some other work done. Anyway, the original plan was to get a license for a PC and dyno tune. However another shop said to get a Thundermax with auto tune as it will make the changes needed for different elevations as I plan rides out west this next year. So the question is, will the dyno be best as I ride in different elevations or should I go with the Tmax that will make changes on the fly? Thanks in advance
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Joined: Sep 2010
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From: Phoenix '53, '88, '09 Big Twins
they are different devices.
the PC essentially "translates" and alters data from the sensors into the ECM ("computer") and causes changes to be made in the spark and fuel delivery...these would include the sensors which would tell the ecm about air density changes ( altitude).
the Thundermax is a complete replacement ECM which uses the data direct from the sensors.
a more comprehensive device with far more capability.
any device used to set up a bike should be able to react to changes on the road...a "dyno-tune" is an earner for the shop who owns one...but a dyno is not a road with varying grades, speeds/throttle positions, altitude, fuel available etc etc- these are all aspects which the ECM should respond to
IF someone told you to be afraid of elevation changes...either they tried to tell you something you didn;t understand or they were trying to scare you into buying something.
a very very common dayride here is AZ will run 1200' to 8000' and back in a day...thousands of vehicles manage this without trouble- modern engine controls have no problem.
antiquated designs such as an S&S or Mikuni carb might have trouble as they would have been optimized for a particular air density and cannot self adjust as the day goes on.
My '53 has a Linkert carb which requires adjustment on the fly as density changes
mike
the PC essentially "translates" and alters data from the sensors into the ECM ("computer") and causes changes to be made in the spark and fuel delivery...these would include the sensors which would tell the ecm about air density changes ( altitude).
the Thundermax is a complete replacement ECM which uses the data direct from the sensors.
a more comprehensive device with far more capability.
any device used to set up a bike should be able to react to changes on the road...a "dyno-tune" is an earner for the shop who owns one...but a dyno is not a road with varying grades, speeds/throttle positions, altitude, fuel available etc etc- these are all aspects which the ECM should respond to
IF someone told you to be afraid of elevation changes...either they tried to tell you something you didn;t understand or they were trying to scare you into buying something.
a very very common dayride here is AZ will run 1200' to 8000' and back in a day...thousands of vehicles manage this without trouble- modern engine controls have no problem.
antiquated designs such as an S&S or Mikuni carb might have trouble as they would have been optimized for a particular air density and cannot self adjust as the day goes on.
My '53 has a Linkert carb which requires adjustment on the fly as density changes
mike
Last edited by mkguitar; Jan 9, 2017 at 12:20 PM.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 14,744
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From: Phoenix '53, '88, '09 Big Twins
your changes are likely very common- it is important that cams and exhaust work together- complement each other.
if you are not a motorhead- take some time to look at forum sponsor fuel moto and their offerings- while I don't use them*- they have a stellar rep for customer service and support.
and a device like the PV they will pre-load for you and offer support into the future.
they also offer mechanical services
Mike
*I leave my Harleys at stage 1- my observations over the years is the more performance work, the less reliable and the poorer the MPG. That's me. I have other bikes which go fast and can stop and turn
if you are not a motorhead- take some time to look at forum sponsor fuel moto and their offerings- while I don't use them*- they have a stellar rep for customer service and support.
and a device like the PV they will pre-load for you and offer support into the future.
they also offer mechanical services
Mike
*I leave my Harleys at stage 1- my observations over the years is the more performance work, the less reliable and the poorer the MPG. That's me. I have other bikes which go fast and can stop and turn
Ok, got his take on it. I wish I knew more about bikes and wouldnt have to have "bikes for dummies" lol. I'm learning and will rely on the more knowlegable here to help me along the way. Thanks guys
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 14,744
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From: Phoenix '53, '88, '09 Big Twins
Ok, so why rush?
This is for the '13?
what do you hope to do.
in general, he best bang for buck you will ever get on an HD is a stage 1
commonly accepted to the be free flowing exhaust, hi flow intake and some kind of tuning compensation. this will give 7 to 10 HP.
since we are just talking, this stage 1 can cost $2000 for the "drop it off at the dealer" guys
or a few hundred bucks for the diy.
what I would do ( me) is get a new header with out a catalytic converter- these are about $150 on ebay and give us the "free flow", reuse your mufflers.
hi flow intake is the ness big sucker w/chrome backing plate- usually under $120 on ebay from easternpc.
we are now under $300 and have hi flow in and out of the motor- essentially we have defeated the noise and Hydrocarbon emissions controls which clog up flow through the motor.
tuning now needs compensation- you can use the devices discussed earlier...or for cost I like the offerings from nightrider.com- the xieds/vieds. a simple device which fools the ECM into adding slightly more fuel. These are less complex but cost effective.
I have many thousands of miles on a set of xieds on my 09 with good results.
this gives the 7 to 10 HP for under $500- closer to $400 and the mechanical difficulty is 2 on a scale of 10. no special tools or knowledge are needed
your mpg will drop slightly- mine went from typical 44 to 43 on the 96".
Mike
This is for the '13?
what do you hope to do.
in general, he best bang for buck you will ever get on an HD is a stage 1
commonly accepted to the be free flowing exhaust, hi flow intake and some kind of tuning compensation. this will give 7 to 10 HP.
since we are just talking, this stage 1 can cost $2000 for the "drop it off at the dealer" guys
or a few hundred bucks for the diy.
what I would do ( me) is get a new header with out a catalytic converter- these are about $150 on ebay and give us the "free flow", reuse your mufflers.
hi flow intake is the ness big sucker w/chrome backing plate- usually under $120 on ebay from easternpc.
we are now under $300 and have hi flow in and out of the motor- essentially we have defeated the noise and Hydrocarbon emissions controls which clog up flow through the motor.
tuning now needs compensation- you can use the devices discussed earlier...or for cost I like the offerings from nightrider.com- the xieds/vieds. a simple device which fools the ECM into adding slightly more fuel. These are less complex but cost effective.
I have many thousands of miles on a set of xieds on my 09 with good results.
this gives the 7 to 10 HP for under $500- closer to $400 and the mechanical difficulty is 2 on a scale of 10. no special tools or knowledge are needed
your mpg will drop slightly- mine went from typical 44 to 43 on the 96".
Mike
Last edited by mkguitar; Jan 9, 2017 at 12:57 PM.
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The shop that I am going to go to is a good ways away from me. While I'm on a fixed income I going to send him money to get the parts, more money for the rest of the parts, bring it in for the work and dyno and pay the balance. I didnt want to start sending him money and then have to change the plan. If that makes sense
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Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2013
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Get the PV - they will set you up with a good tune and then if you want - do the auto-tune from there - save your $$ on the Dyno guy, he might be able to squeeze a few more HP/TQ from it but I would not waste my money doing it...
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Joined: Dec 2005
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From: poway
If you are going to have the bike tuned by a competent tuning shop, go with PV or TTS or really whatever the shop likes.. If you plan on simply loading a map and running, Tmax will likely get you closer. Note that all the systems don't really autotune. They have ways to adjust motor fueling.. Tmax is by far the easiest but it needs 18mm bungs in the headpipes as it uses wideband sensors and pretty much adjusts the AFR full time.