Problems after Wide band Autotune install
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,160
Likes: 11,249
From: San Diego, CA
hattitude you're not a tech but you have a great understanding of efi. Not all dyno tuners only use broadbands. 
I will use the broadbands to rough in the ve tables because they do have a "broader" range but they are so much slower than the narrow bands and who knows at when they actually sample. Once I get the tables roughed in I turn my area of closed loop back on. My tuning device of choice can sample with both broad and narrow bands at the same time so I can tune to my target afr table. This is determined by build and exhaust choice. The narrow bands are very fast, very accurate. Even the "large" builds leave here with the cruise area in closed loop. One thing I've noticed is that if you just enable closed loop after tuning with the broad bands your adaptive fuel values will not be centred on 100% which is one of the reasons for tuning. Just my opinion but leaving the whole map in closed loop is a dangerous thing as good sampling can be affected by different things like reversion, open exhaust etc. as we know with computers garbage in equals garbage out.
I will use the broadbands to rough in the ve tables because they do have a "broader" range but they are so much slower than the narrow bands and who knows at when they actually sample. Once I get the tables roughed in I turn my area of closed loop back on. My tuning device of choice can sample with both broad and narrow bands at the same time so I can tune to my target afr table. This is determined by build and exhaust choice. The narrow bands are very fast, very accurate. Even the "large" builds leave here with the cruise area in closed loop. One thing I've noticed is that if you just enable closed loop after tuning with the broad bands your adaptive fuel values will not be centred on 100% which is one of the reasons for tuning. Just my opinion but leaving the whole map in closed loop is a dangerous thing as good sampling can be affected by different things like reversion, open exhaust etc. as we know with computers garbage in equals garbage out.Thanks for that info...
I was unaware that the narrow band are faster. I can see how that would make them a good choice for the map area within their range. It also explains why they use them in the first place... I was totally unaware that both can be used in a dyno tune...but I know that now. I just figured because of the larger range of the wide band, they would be the "go to" O2 sensor for doing a complete map...
On my Bagger with a 124" dyno'd at 135hp/151tq, it was dyno tuned and has an area of closed loop in the cruise area... I feel better knowing that within their range, they sample fast...
Thanks again.... some day I'll hopefully be able to say, "I completely understand.." But not yet...
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,160
Likes: 11,249
From: San Diego, CA
Sorry that I can't answer that question...
I currently have 4 Twin Cams, with no plans for an M8 in the near future...
I only know that in 2020ish, the MoCo made a major change to the ECM. It requires a new plug, but never having held one in my hand, I have no idea what it is...
I suspect it's an OB2 or OB3, whatever it takes..
(you know I'm just kidding about the OB2/OB3 thing right?)PS- I just found this on the FuelMoto web site. It appears the new ECM was in 2021.
"2021 Harley updates! FLH/FLT models got a new Delphi MT22 ECM, new ISO 19689 OBD data port."
I believe the "ISO 19689 OBD data port" is compatible with an OBD II data, but needs an adapter to connect to a standard OBD II connecter, like on an OBD II scanner...
Last edited by hattitude; Jul 20, 2023 at 09:14 PM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 38,610
Likes: 6,439
From: Honah Lee
Sorry that I can't answer that question...
I currently have 4 Twin Cams, with no plans for an M8 in the near future...
I only know that in 2020ish, the MoCo made a major change to the ECM. It requires a new plug, but never having held one in my hand, I have no idea what it is...
I suspect it's an OB2 or OB3, whatever it takes.. (you know I'm just kidding about the OB2/OB3 thing right?)
PS- I just found this on the FuelMoto web site. It appears the new ECM was in 2021.
"2021 Harley updates! FLH/FLT models got a new Delphi MT22 ECM, new ISO 19689 OBD data port."
I believe the "ISO 19689 OBD data port" is compatible with an OBD II data, but needs an adapter to connect to a standard OBD II connecter, like on an OBD II scanner...
I currently have 4 Twin Cams, with no plans for an M8 in the near future...
I only know that in 2020ish, the MoCo made a major change to the ECM. It requires a new plug, but never having held one in my hand, I have no idea what it is...
I suspect it's an OB2 or OB3, whatever it takes..
(you know I'm just kidding about the OB2/OB3 thing right?)PS- I just found this on the FuelMoto web site. It appears the new ECM was in 2021.
"2021 Harley updates! FLH/FLT models got a new Delphi MT22 ECM, new ISO 19689 OBD data port."
I believe the "ISO 19689 OBD data port" is compatible with an OBD II data, but needs an adapter to connect to a standard OBD II connecter, like on an OBD II scanner...
It was about time. The technology to reduce an OB2 computer down to a manageable size and probably government dictate made it finally happen.
Of course the bean counters skimped on the plug to slow us garage mechanics down I guess..
Last edited by Jackie Paper; Jul 21, 2023 at 04:20 AM.
Tourer
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 449
Likes: 197
From: NC Mountains
All cleaned up except the windshield. I always miss something
I tend to get impatient and make adjustments with a hammer. However there are some things that don't respond well to that level of adjustment. I wish you luck with that. At first mine spent a fair amount of time in the auto tune mode. The bike learned my riding style, made adjustments and from time to tim I would down load those results to the Techs at TM for their review, as they are the MFG'c of this equipment over the hill from me in Tn. The decel pop we had issues with. I went outside the program and did a "Shadetree" fix for that, mostly due to the older stock pipes with 02 ports I still run. The only other small problem I mentioned to the Tech, my throttle response was so fast it had a jerk quality even at moderate backroad speeds. They made a slight timming change and thats it. I'm happy with my choice. Sometimes not so much with other items. All I can say is study, ask, learn, and your PV may be just fine.
Don't put it up for sale or use it for target practice just yet.
Last edited by dfixit1; Jul 21, 2023 at 01:57 PM. Reason: extra thought for reply to quote
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 66
Likes: 2
From: amesterdam
My understanding on how this works is that you need to REPLACE the original O2 sensors w/ wideband versions, enable the software for wideband use, THEN run the autotune (logging and editing).
Last edited by danaezabail; Jul 30, 2023 at 11:00 AM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,160
Likes: 11,249
From: San Diego, CA
My understanding on how this works is that you need to REPLACE the original O2 sensors w/ wideband versions, enable the software for wideband use, THEN run the autotune (logging and editing).
You cannot just add wide band sensors to an OEM HD bike. The OEM ECM will not read/interpret Wide Band O2 sensors.
You would need a supporting piggyback tuner like the PowerVision Target Tune, or an aftermarket ECM like a ThunderMax ECM, to change over to wide band O2 sensors.
While there are advantages to using wide band sensors as mentioned above... Just how much better they are, on a street driven bike, is debatable....
For 99.9% of all street driven bikes, you can get a great running bike, even with some extensive mods, with the OEM narrow band O2 sensors and OEM ECM.
I have a '16 Bagger w/124" S&S crate engine @ 135HP/151TQ, a '16 LowRider w/Stage I, an '01 Springer w/carb & Stage I, and an '03 Heritage EFI w/95' big bore kit & headwork. All bikes have OEM ECMs, and the bikes with O2 sensors are running OEM O2 sensors.
All these bikes run excellent...!
The trick is to get a good tune for your mods...
Last edited by hattitude; Jul 30, 2023 at 09:13 PM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 38,610
Likes: 6,439
From: Honah Lee
You cannot just add wide band sensors to an OEM HD bike. The OEM ECM will not read/interpret Wide Band O2 sensors.
You would need a supporting piggyback tuner like the PowerVision Target Tune, or an aftermarket ECM like a ThunderMax ECM, to change over to wide band O2 sensors.
While there are advantages to using wide band sensors as mentioned above... Just how2 much better they are, on a street driven bike, is debatable....
For 99.9% of all street driven bikes, you can get a great running bike, even with some extensive mods, with the OEM narrow band O2 sensors and OEM ECM.
I have a '16 Bagger w/124" S&S crate engine @ 135HP/151TQ, a '16 LowRider w/Stage I, an '01 Springer w/carb & Stage I, and an '03 Heritage EFI w/95' big bore kit & headwork. All bikes have OEM ECMs, and the bikes with O2 sensors are running OEM O2 sensors.
All these bikes run excellent...!
The trick is to get a good tune for your mods...
You would need a supporting piggyback tuner like the PowerVision Target Tune, or an aftermarket ECM like a ThunderMax ECM, to change over to wide band O2 sensors.
While there are advantages to using wide band sensors as mentioned above... Just how2 much better they are, on a street driven bike, is debatable....
For 99.9% of all street driven bikes, you can get a great running bike, even with some extensive mods, with the OEM narrow band O2 sensors and OEM ECM.
I have a '16 Bagger w/124" S&S crate engine @ 135HP/151TQ, a '16 LowRider w/Stage I, an '01 Springer w/carb & Stage I, and an '03 Heritage EFI w/95' big bore kit & headwork. All bikes have OEM ECMs, and the bikes with O2 sensors are running OEM O2 sensors.
All these bikes run excellent...!
The trick is to get a good tune for your mods...
Too cool. So obviously my old 04 ECM without oxygen sensors that runs closed loop all the time would not be a candidate for that?
However when I got it with only a few miles on it, it had a open SE filter and Python open exhaust with no crossover.
Owner said the local dealer flashed the ECM.
I put stock OEM takeoffs from a 96B Night train on it. I'm never been interested in performance other the a good reliable running bike that's serviceable with OEM service manuals.
Actually, that stock exhaust with crossover made my bike run better. Quality smooth bottom end, engine braking and no obnoxious noises. Does sound a little like a Hoover vac if you get too far into it. Rarely ever did that. Probably never seen it at 4K.
Back to topic and your post...
So in your case, reference to what I made bold, what years are Harleys' stock ECMs can handle modifications and what system does the average garage mechanic need to do that?
Last edited by Jackie Paper; Jul 31, 2023 at 07:18 AM.
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Verdad Gallardo
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026
Verdad Gallardo
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,160
Likes: 11,249
From: San Diego, CA
Too cool. So obviously my old 04 ECM without oxygen sensors that runs closed loop all the time would not be a candidate for that?
However when I got it with only a few miles on it, it had a open SE filter and Python open exhaust with no crossover.
Owner said the local dealer flashed the ECM.
I put stock OEM takeoffs from a 96B Night train on it. I'm never been interested in performance other the a good reliable running bike that's serviceable with OEM service manuals.
Actually, that stock exhaust with crossover made my bike run better. Quality smooth bottom end, engine braking and no obnoxious noises. Does sound a little like a Hoover vac if you get too far into it. Rarely ever did that. Probably never seen it at 4K.
Back to topic and your post...
So in your case, reference to what I made bold, what years are Harleys' stock ECMs can handle modifications and what system does the average garage mechanic need to do that?
Your 2004 without O2 sensors runs in Open Loop all the time (no O2 sensor feedback). It's tune map runs solely on algorithms based off the airflow of the engine when tuned.
You could change the ECM to a ThunderMax ECM, and add 18mm O2 sensor bungs to your exhaust.... That would allow you to run wide band O2 sensors and be in closed Loop (O2 sensor feedback) all the time...
But then again, a well tuned bike in Open Loop can run really good... It would be cheaper to just get a good dyno tune from a competent dyno tuner...
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 38,610
Likes: 6,439
From: Honah Lee
Your 2004 without O2 sensors runs in Open Loop all the time (no O2 sensor feedback). It's tune map runs solely on algorithms based off the airflow of the engine when tuned.
You could change the ECM to a ThunderMax ECM, and add 18mm O2 sensor bungs to your exhaust.... That would allow you to run wide band O2 sensors and be in closed Loop (O2 sensor feedback) all the time...
But then again, a well tuned bike in Open Loop can run really good... It would be cheaper to just get a good dyno tune from a competent dyno tuner...
You could change the ECM to a ThunderMax ECM, and add 18mm O2 sensor bungs to your exhaust.... That would allow you to run wide band O2 sensors and be in closed Loop (O2 sensor feedback) all the time...
But then again, a well tuned bike in Open Loop can run really good... It would be cheaper to just get a good dyno tune from a competent dyno tuner...
Always get that open / closed stuff backwards. Logic tells me mine with no oxygen sensors is closed to any change by me.
My OEM exhaust off the last model year NightTrain does have the large oxygen sensor ports. I put SS plugs in them when I installed the system.
Probably done with riding. And even if I ever do change my mind, I'm happy with a as bike.
My real question is what piece of hardware and software does it take to modify the stock ECM.