The VE table provides the preliminary calculation factor for the injector duty cycles to be used. The value is trimmed (becomes "VE NEW") by the auto-tuning-resultant AFV. If, for some reason, the VE values are incorrect at the moment (by less than ±15%) the feedback from the O2 sensor (and that, based on the CLB target designated) is what controls both the AFR and the AFV-to-be-used-next-time.

I'm getting tired of saying this over and over and am racking my brain trying to present it more clearly and concisely... Maybe this stuff is rocket science after all and I'm just a rocket scientist? Sorry, but although this stuff might be somewhat complicated it's not too much so. I see it plain as day. Maybe the fault here is my communication skills. However, I don't perceive this is a case of us both saying the same thing but doing so differently. What I fear is happening is that you aren't familiar with the "adaptive fuel" operations and thus arguing against them.

 

yes you can change it. I removed my 07 stock mufflers and installed a set of SE 65115-98's, these are some of the SE slip-ons that where "For off-road use only" and have been "discontinued". I found a set from a member here. I have ran 4000 miles with them, no issues and love how they sound. I use stock heaeders and haven't yet installed an A/C kit. I get 41-42 mpg riding 2-up loaded.

This winter the plan is if I dont go to a 103 Kit I will be adding just the A/C kit and Stage 1 download.

Just my 2 cents........mps

 

Those tables are from the SERT map I used as a base calibration.
I have not tweaked anything yet. The bike runs good with this map. Someday I`ll get some dyno time and trim it out.

 

Not arguing against them. Just not worth eng. damage due to narrow band 02 sensors and an unknown equation of fuel trim to allow someone to blindly install A/M equipment and risk it. IMO
Maybe is a big risk when it comes to engine damage. Any change in my book should be properly setup without relying onunknown factors and hearsay to go on.
Do IT Right The First Time and save time and moneyin the long run. In other words, don`t risk engine damage because your to cheap to do it right.

 

If you would quit professing yourself as a guinness long enough to realize that the Tables your looking at are not stock ECM calibrations, you might understand why I don`t agree with your claim that head room is not a problem for the V/E adaption for proper AFR.
This is a Dyno produced map with SE-A/C and Race mufflers. This map has been modified like I stated.
I have no ideawhat the stock map values are set at. That`s the point your missing while your patting yourself on the back and telling us how great you are.
Without knowing what the V/E, AFR and trim tables are your risking damage....Thanks again for proving my point. Hows that for communication skills.
Everyone has their own understanding of ECM functions, but don't overlook the little things that will bite you in the end.

 

This is the kind of thing that will damage someone`s motor based on bad advise. The table your so quick to evaluate as stockis a modded V/E AFR Dyno tuned map with SE-A/F and Race mufflers. I advised you of that when I posted it, but you ran wild with it and started patting yourself on the back again.[8D]
Refer to my previous post for more info. Just enough knowledge to hang yourself.

 

I though "guinness" was a beer so I had to look it up. But it really doesn't mean anything else I can see without digging too deep so I'm a little baffled now by what you meant. The context doesn't make it sound like much of a compliment, though, so I guess your point is made and acknowledged.

It was a few posts later that you even explained their source and although you didn't say "stock" you did say "baseline", which to me implies "canned".

Enlighten me why headroom is not a problem; please.

You mean stated like "Those tables are from the SERT map I used as a base calibration. I have not tweaked anything yet. The bike runs good with this map. Someday I`ll get some dyno time and trim it out."?

I don't believe I've been telling anyone how great I are. It doesn't matter what the stock map values are. The AFV will lower or lift the whole VE table up to 15%. How much oxygenated fuel at 10,000 ft under the eye of a low-pressure cell plus a set of V&H ovals do you think it'll take to hit 15%?

You posted screenshots of some tables you said were from a baseline map. From the looks of it, with such a map, I'd be in closed-loop 95% or better of the time I ride, and I ride in a somewhat spirited manner. If the stock maps look anything like those I'm confident most everyone here who's put slip-on mufflers on their '07-or-better will ride 'til the bottom end falls apart before they hole a piston.

But if you have a problem with that, maybe we should just take this outside? hahaha!

Seriously, though, I like to discuss things like this. Please provide something to back up your accusation that what I've said is incorrect. I love to learn new things. Mere assertions are like skeletons with no meat on their bones. I know you know what you're talking about. Dig up the information and bring it on. Please!

 

Nope...I`m done.
You haveconvoluted everything. I posted the Map tables from the SERT that has been designed with dyno testing and youmanage to convince yourself this is what you have been telling yourself/everyone. So I`ll just ride my bike and enjoy tuning my DTT/WEGO IID on my SG. When I get time I`ll tweak the SERT map and fine tune it for the 08 Ultra. Happy Motoring....[&:]

 

My convolution was in trying to convey the same thing different ways in an effort to to get you to acknowledge that you understood what I was saying. All you seemed to do was argue against it but with no corrections, as should have been forthcoming if you were sincerely trying to help us understand what's going on; especially if you thought I was disseminating wrong information. The end result, assuming you're right, is that you leave us in the very position you warn against, namely, possessing just enough information to be dangerous.

Your very first post in this thread suggested that the lean setup would become more-so by the addition of freer-flowing mufflers. As if the current EFI were as inflexible as a carburetor. That's what got my attention and prompted me to (attempt to) explain the flexibility the '07 Harley Delphi possesses.

I'm not evaluating as stock the two tables you posted (the third isn't a table, it's a 3D graphic representation of one of them). I'm evaluating them at face value. The main difference from stock is probably in the VE tables anyway, since the peripherals are the only things that've changed, right? And your assertion that that particular map was the result of setting the VE tables on a dyno seems to be implying that the stock VE tables weren't, although I'm sure you wouldn't knowingly suggest that.

You seem to be fixated on the narrow-band sensors' limited range. What causes the PO131 (front O2 sensor low / lean) and PO151 (rear, same) codes to be thrown (or their converse for "rich")? Is it when it happens momentarily, or when the AFV headroom has run out and they cannot be brought back into range by factoring the VE tables? Why aren't all these '07 and '08 folks running around with un-remapped non-stock-mufflers flashing those codes? Of course, they'd only get generated while closed loop because the sensors are certainly in an over-rich (range-wise) environment WOT even with stock mufflers/mapping, but if the VE tables have successfully been factored by the AFV to get the sensors back in range (close-loop), why do you think there'd be danger while in open loop?

I will grant you that it's highly unlikely that any non-stock muffler would, on a dyno with a SERT, result in an uniform-across-the-board factor-shift in the VE tables. That's were the danger of the unknown lies, and I agree that it would ultimately be the best to SERT the Delphi and manipulate them precisely. I'm not arguing against that notion for a moment. When an aftermarket muffler maker states no re-mapping is required for use of one of their products, though, that likely means they've reached the conclusion as the result of an actual test; at least we'd hope so if they are a reputable outfit. I'd trust the guys at Epiflex.com or V&H, as opposed to, say, an ebay stock muffler re-corer, to stand behind their product used as directed. Standing behind it to whatever extent necessary.

I'm wondering how many reports of squeaked pistons there are so far from simply bolting an (reputable, especially) aftermarket muffler onto an '07 or '08 stock-Delphi-equipped Harley.

Oh, well...

In closing, if you've sensed hostility in my end of our interaction then I heartily apologize because none is intended. As far as I'm concerned we're simply discussing this stuff in an attempt to come to a more complete understanding. I'll graciously accept any bona-fide correction you might offer.

 

This should stop any confusion, misunderstanding and operational functionsquestions. This is straight from the SERT Manual. Bona-fide information that can not (should not) be able to be convoluted.[8D]Note the highlighted area. 02 sensors are only capable of +/- 0.5%. Not the bigger picture of +/- 15%you have provided as fact.
This info is fact and you can dispute it all you want, but facts are fact. 0.5% is a very narrow window for fuel trim adjustm