TMAX vs H-D RACE TUNER
Banned
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 1
From:
RE: TMAX vs H-D RACE TUNER
ORIGINAL: PhilM
That would be my recommendation as well ~ Espically since you already have the SERT. The ProTuner adds dynamic AFR management to the very granular tunability of the SERT. One key feature that is only available with the stock Delphi ECM / SERT combo is access to ion sensing (knock detection) data. This allows one to completely tune out ping ~ including ping that is far below audible level. This is a patented technology that is only available with the Delphi ECM. It will never be available on aftermarket systems.
ORIGINAL: asuperheat
Call kevin @ H.Q. talk to him about the pro tuner they sell he will give you a map for your sert for your build, then add the pro tuner for full continuous adjusting cheeper than the other since you have a sert now and no dyno nessasary and is the way I am going.
Call kevin @ H.Q. talk to him about the pro tuner they sell he will give you a map for your sert for your build, then add the pro tuner for full continuous adjusting cheeper than the other since you have a sert now and no dyno nessasary and is the way I am going.
I havea question you could possibly answer, the ion sensing (anti knock) you speak of inherent to the Delphi system
are theS&S ISTor VFIsystems similiar in any way? or something differentt
Thanks Again
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,939
Likes: 3
From: TX
RE: TMAX vs H-D RACE TUNER
I am not a lawyer, so those of you that are, please forgive me if I butcher this somehow....
I have learned about this relatively recently and (so far) have only a limited understanding of all that is involved. It is a partented technology that has been licensed to Delphi for use in their systems. It is not available in other systems.
As an example, if a tuner (or owner) attaches a DTT TwinScan II+ (or other) data logging device to a Delphi ECM that has a SERT, and rides the bike thru various data colletcion sequences he/she can then analyze the data that is collected by the TS II+ and zero in on exact circumstances where detination is occuring and subsequently tune (AFR or timing) to address the exact conditions under which pinging occurs. Again, this is data is graphically represneted and it is detected (and logged) at levels far below those that are audible (what you can hear). Ping can and does occur, at lesser intensity than what is required to us to "hear it". If it is occurring, even though we can not hear it, the motor is still not in an ideal state of tune and conceivably still suseptable to damage that stems from the ignition of fuel in the cumbustion chamber prior to the the plug firing.
Simply put, the ECM "knows" when detination is occurring, but it does not have the necessary logic to fix it dynamically.That data is legally protected and can not be "exposed" by any system other than Delphi.
I have learned about this relatively recently and (so far) have only a limited understanding of all that is involved. It is a partented technology that has been licensed to Delphi for use in their systems. It is not available in other systems.
As an example, if a tuner (or owner) attaches a DTT TwinScan II+ (or other) data logging device to a Delphi ECM that has a SERT, and rides the bike thru various data colletcion sequences he/she can then analyze the data that is collected by the TS II+ and zero in on exact circumstances where detination is occuring and subsequently tune (AFR or timing) to address the exact conditions under which pinging occurs. Again, this is data is graphically represneted and it is detected (and logged) at levels far below those that are audible (what you can hear). Ping can and does occur, at lesser intensity than what is required to us to "hear it". If it is occurring, even though we can not hear it, the motor is still not in an ideal state of tune and conceivably still suseptable to damage that stems from the ignition of fuel in the cumbustion chamber prior to the the plug firing.
Simply put, the ECM "knows" when detination is occurring, but it does not have the necessary logic to fix it dynamically.That data is legally protected and can not be "exposed" by any system other than Delphi.
Cruiser
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
From:
RE: TMAX vs H-D RACE TUNER
That would be my recommendation as well ~ Espically since you already have the SERT. The ProTuner adds dynamic AFR management to the very granular tunability of the SERT. One key feature that is only available with the stock Delphi ECM / SERT combo is access to ion sensing (knock detection) data. This allows one to completely tune out ping ~ including ping that is far below audible level. This is a patented technology that is only available with the Delphi ECM. It will never be available on aftermarket systems.
As far as it being patented technology the aftermarket will never have, only the implementation of Delphi's system (the way they integrated the ion-sense capability with an ignition coil) is patented, not the actual ability to do it. It's relatively simple math, but useless without the hardware to apply it.
Please don't take offense at my clarification, I'm not trying to be a a$$ here, I'm just a 20+ year technology geek with even longer ties to the automotive industry.
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 790
Likes: 2
From:
RE: TMAX vs H-D RACE TUNER
ORIGINAL: Gutman
Dyno tuning is still needed with the T-Max. The SERT will work just fine with a capable tuner and tune. No need for any other gimmick add on stuff that doesn't do what is advertised. I have seen a couple T-Maxes where they have pre-ignition, only have canned maps that needtuned. Stick with what works, SERT and a Good tuner. If the tune is good it doen't need continual adjustments.
Might need to update T-body and injectors to V-Rod injectors.
Dyno tuning is still needed with the T-Max. The SERT will work just fine with a capable tuner and tune. No need for any other gimmick add on stuff that doesn't do what is advertised. I have seen a couple T-Maxes where they have pre-ignition, only have canned maps that needtuned. Stick with what works, SERT and a Good tuner. If the tune is good it doen't need continual adjustments.
Might need to update T-body and injectors to V-Rod injectors.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,939
Likes: 3
From: TX
RE: TMAX vs H-D RACE TUNER
ORIGINAL: SGDude
Please don't take offense at my clarification, I'm not trying to be a a$$ here, I'm just a 20+ year technology geek with even longer ties to the automotive industry.
Please don't take offense at my clarification, I'm not trying to be a a$$ here, I'm just a 20+ year technology geek with even longer ties to the automotive industry.
It's a cinch that the technology we have on these $20k+ bikes is arcane as compared to what is and has been in use in the autmotive industry for decades.
As far as hard coded baseline valuesgo and theimplicit impact of modding an engine.... All I can say is that several of the BEST TUNED AND RUNNING EFI Harley's I have ever encountered have beensetup with this as one of the key mechanisms for fine tuning.These engines weremost definitely nowhere close to stock.
Again, no offense taken!
Road Master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 783
Likes: 1
From:
RE: TMAX vs H-D RACE TUNER
No dyno tune with this set up, cost for protuner is $499 that is less than T-max w/auto tune and as Phil has stated above gives you some advantages that the T-max does not for those of us with a sert already I think it makes a lot more sense. Not to mention the added bennifet of having the map by H.Q. for us building motors with there kit, And yes I will dyno my bike not for tuning but just to run the #'s because im one of those guys that like to know how much tq. it takes to break my tire loose rollong on the thortle in 2nd gear.
ORIGINAL: TX_RG
Why spend money on the RaceTuner? The ThunderMax w/ AutoTune will save you money after the second Dyno Tune. The SERT requires a retuning anytime you change something, It is a little redundant to pay for a SERT, pay for a Dyno Tune to set the base map, then pay for the HQ auto-tuner.
The ThunderMax just requires that you load the closest base map then ride.
Why spend money on the RaceTuner? The ThunderMax w/ AutoTune will save you money after the second Dyno Tune. The SERT requires a retuning anytime you change something, It is a little redundant to pay for a SERT, pay for a Dyno Tune to set the base map, then pay for the HQ auto-tuner.
The ThunderMax just requires that you load the closest base map then ride.
Road Master
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,049
Likes: 1
From: Brookfield,Il.
RE: TMAX vs H-D RACE TUNER
Hmmm I would have to get up to speed on the pro-tuners capabilities, before I could be as gun ho as a few people are on this product. what concerns me on canned software programs would be things like atmospheric(area we live in)conditions that will effect your fuel management. With the T-max you can look at each cylinders fuel ratio and make seperate adjustments per cylinders. Also heat plays a factor on fuel conditions. With the T-max not only is it a closed loop adaptive system, but you can make corrections per cylinder.Does a rear cylinder run hotter normally? Is a richer mixture usually make for a cooler running cylinder? I think Phil you stated that the system was 'arcane' meaning a mysterous secret.....there's nothing mysterous at all about a the 20K bike we are all riding compared to the technoligy that is present with the multi sensors on an automobile. If anything I would say it's archaic, like auto's back in the early 80's when the first computers came out on automobiles (not european). I'm also confused on why alot of people that go with this 103 kits are buying new cylinders vs just having them bored and fitted for the pistons that they are installing? The other factor would be with all this horse power being made.......what about the bottom end? When did HD make the change in their sprocket shaft bearing, I believe it was in 2003? Anyone considering updating it for the extra HP? I think anyone that understands cam durations etc. has someone that can run a flow bench and understands what the customer is trying to obtain ......can put a package together for about 2000.00 plus labor that will put you in the 100/100 plus HP club on pump gas. There are alot of good products that are out there.
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Verdad Gallardo
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026
Verdad Gallardo
Cruiser
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
From:
RE: TMAX vs H-D RACE TUNER
All I can say is that several of the BEST TUNED AND RUNNING EFI Harley's I have ever encountered have beensetup with this as one of the key mechanisms for fine tuning.These engines weremost definitely nowhere close to stock.
Cruiser
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
From:
RE: TMAX vs H-D RACE TUNER
With the T-max you can look at each cylinders fuel ratio and make seperate adjustments per cylinders. Also heat plays a factor on fuel conditions. With the T-max not only is it a closed loop adaptive system, but you can make corrections per cylinder.Does a rear cylinder run hotter normally? Is a richer mixture usually make for a cooler running cylinder?