Better face it, glens.&nbsp\\; Some people aren't capable of understanding what you say, no matter what.&nbsp\\; And they resent you for it.
As for me?&nbsp\\; I'm glad I have a cool-running Evo and a lightly modified carburetor.

 

you can say what you want about glens but I know that I wish
i would have listened to him about 6 months ago when he was trying to explain on here that the termial velocity ll was not a good fuel management device to use on delphi systems ,wanting to believe in the easy cheaper fix I sided with the member saying these tv ll's where the real deal and do everything the company claims,man did I make a mistake I am now stuck with a 400 dollar piece of junk thay don't work and the company never returns your calls,so yes I have a tendancy to listen to the guy when he is trying to explain&nbsp\\; efi&nbsp\\; because he does seem to know his stuff.

as far as the xieds go I have had them on my bike for a couple of months and they do work good,but I seen first hand what glens is talking about when I had my bike dynoed in laconia by DR.DYNO who by the way dynoed my bike for nothing because he had never dynoed one with these devices before and wanted to see if they worked,bottom line is they worked as advertised but the bike would go rich in open loop,that being said I still have them on my bike because I like the way the bike runs with them on and as long as it is going rich in open loop and not lean I don't think there will be any harm done.

 

&gt\\;&gt\\;That is okay if you want to do it without having your head buried in the sand. Just think of all the possible ramifications when taking your decision, okay&lt\\;&lt\\;

You know Glen, I've been trying to plow through your "I'm great and you guys need to catch up or else" so that I can learn why you think IEDs are bad. They are bad aren't they? I can't really tell. I've come to the conclusion that you just have a way with words that seem go over my head. So, I'm going to try something that I do at work that usually gets the discussion down to the cob. let me ask some questions and see if you can answer each of them in just one sentence. Just one.

What is the open loop?
What is the close loop?
When is one disengaged and the other engaged?
What would you do to solve the heat problem?
What would you do to add a little more throttle resonse?
Name one ramification you refer to.
Now, one more.
Two years down the road, what harm would you expect from the XIEDs?

Maybe answering these simple questions will help us to understand what you are saying.

Beary

 

Hey guys, I've been ragged on a few times in this forum because I speak my mind and then someone doesn't like what they hear.&nbsp\\; Keep in mind, it's a forum, a group of people brought together for a purpose.&nbsp\\; It is a discussion forum, a place for people to offer differing opinions and views, a place to debate and learn.&nbsp\\; I've learned a ton of stuff here, but the most important thing to learn is to make your own decision.&nbsp\\; Maybe Glens is right, maybe he's wrong.&nbsp\\; Guys on here will adamantly defend one system over another, but what truly makes them an expert?&nbsp\\; Even if they say it runs great, I might jump on it and think it runs like crap, it is their opinion!&nbsp\\; I've watched guys put 2" drags on stock shovels and ride a few minutes, only to proclaim, "Holy Crap!&nbsp\\; It runs so much stronger!"&nbsp\\; Truth is, they lost performance, but with all that noise coming at 'em, it sure seems fast.&nbsp\\; So, it's my opinion (and I'm allowed to have one) that this is all good discussion, I'm learning more to research and also what questions I want to ask as I pursue my research to make a decision, but I am surely not going to put a device on my motorcycle because the company's ad says it is ok, or because it is what everyone else is doing.&nbsp\\; I'm going to do whatever I feel comfortable with so I am the only one to blame if it goes south.&nbsp\\; I think the IED concept is valid and has application, but I'm not going to buy them because someone's "seat of the pants" dyno says they work and I am surely going to take their website with a grain of salt, no one advertises negatives to sell product.

 

If you want to know about the XIED's then read the posts from people who are using them.&nbsp\\; In the thread "Fiel testing the IED", the response from users was overwhelming.&nbsp\\; Things were repeatedly said like lower engine temps, better throttle response, and the most coined expression was best bang for the buck.
&nbsp\\;
Or you can listen to those who have never used them(Glens).
&nbsp\\;
I've used both the IED and the XIED.&nbsp\\; I still run the XIED's.&nbsp\\; I love them and the way they make my bike run.
&nbsp\\;
Best Bang for the Buck.
&nbsp\\;
&nbsp\\;
&nbsp\\;

 

To Glens, I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us, what you said sounded pretty logical.

To Rockndoc, You have to remember Nightrider is trying to sell a product.

Ride on .....

 

All I wanted was some meat to the story.
I get a Vapors.
Looking for Facts.
I get maybes, could be etc.
Hence the Canoe thing.
He sure can write alot. Saying something is another thing all together.
"Maybe" Im just hard headed as well
I'll agree to that

 

a&nbsp\\;couple of question for those that have the xied’s installed on there rides already.
How long have you had them and how many miles have you logged with them?
Other than mileage, heat and a little extra grunt any other side affects?
&nbsp\\;

 

Open-loop is when the EFI does not either get or use feedback to determine if its fueling calculations are correct. The feedback comes from the oxygen (O2) sensor(s) in the exhaust system.

Closed-loop is when the EFI receives and uses feedback to determine that its fueling calculations are indeed correct.

When feedback is used is determined by two things. First is when the EFI has been programmed to use it. This is based in part on the other thing, the type of O2 sensor being used.

The types of O2 sensors can be boiled down to 2. One operates at a very narrow range of excess oxygen in its environment (narrow-band) and the other operates at a wider range of excess oxygen (wide-band). The ones we have on our stock bikes are narrow-band. They can only reliably report on a fuel mixture somewhere in the range of 14.2 to 15.1 or so. What that means is 14.2 to 15.1 parts by weight of air to 1 part by weight of fuel. This is your air-to-fuel ratio, or AFR.

The wide-band sensors can reliably report AFRs well beyond what we would ever want to use. They are much more expensive and complicated. A couple of entire-replacement EFI systems which use them are available for our bikes. They can operate closed-loop everywhere the engine runs. They are expensive. They are not legal to use on public roads (like most of our bikes actually are anyway now that we've modified the way they run - even if it's only installing IEDs of any flavor).

While the extent of the problem is fairly subjective, it is not quite as subjective as what constitutes a good-sounding exhaust. In other words, opinions vary about the heat problem, but most would agree it would be nicer if the engine baked your ***** (or feet, if a passenger) a little less.

Yes the engines run a little leaner (less amount of fuel) than most folks would prefer from a heat-output perspective. But the AFR in use during closed-loop on a stock bike actually is the best to use in terms of complete combustion, which yields great efficiency and low emissions.

Assuming that I consider a 96-inch air-cooled engine right below my ***** to be problematic in terms of its heat output (it would be a good assumption) I would address the issue by supplying a richer AFR to it. I have done so. But I have used a different method than the IEDs. Let's see if you have further questions that might pertain to that before I start going verbose on your ***

I will assume you mean more giddyup-and-go. I would defy the EPA (at whatever level, state and/or federal) and improve the breathing capacity of my engine, along with the necessary changes to the EFI those aftermarket components will require to make the engine run the best it can in all situations. Note the the IEDs in any flavor do not do that.

When the EFI has improper information about the entire engine system it is controlling, it will not provide the best amount of fuel in every situation. Heck it is a crap-shoot. It might be just a little off in some places, spot-on in others, and way off in yet others. All in one running package. Who can say? Seriously. Who can say just what will happen overall when stuff is just added to the engine without properly informing the EFI that it has been done?

How about two? But remember, without precise and controlled measurement in either case (which the EFI on our bikes, with its narrow-band O2 sensors, which only can authoritatively operate in limited ranges and areas of operation, cannot perform everywhere we run the engines) we have to just guess what is going to happen. But history has taught us the results.[*]Running lean enough to burn a hole in the piston[*]Running rich enough to coat the combustion chamber with excessive soot

I realize I have said a lot, but that was clearly stated in at least one place, I'm sure. But I will expound further.

You're riding through Yellowstone during a long dry spell. You have been babying the bike to keep it in closed-loop for just about ever because you realize that the XIEDs are only good (as much as they can be) at letting your EFI accurately control the AFR during closed-loop operation. You finally get upset at that Winnebago ahead of you so you downshift a couple of times to pass his ***. As you do, you finally create enough commotion in the cylinders to cook off some of the excessive carbon you've been diligently building up. A large chunk breaks free and somehow doesn't manage to destroy your sparkplug, or get lodged in the exhaust valve seat (causing the valve to superheat because it doesn't fully close against its seat which would normally suck the heat out of its edges) and burning its edge off in places, so this red-hot chunk of carbon has made it out into the exhaust pipe and flies out through your open baffle onto a pile of bone-dry pine straw on the side of the road...

Okay, in practice none of that happens very often. Extremely rarely, in fact. But it has happened. Each and every one of them. (maybe not specifically Yellowstone)

In order to offer a little bit of perspective to the big picture here, I can tell you for a fact that the woodsmen out west, who dislike the EPA-mandated lean-and-hot-running chainsaws with their restrictive mufflers that have those pesky screens covering the outlets, if they get caught on public land by the forest service (or any other delegated officer) running modified mufflers, especially with the screens removed, they will lose their saw, get fined plenty, and perhaps cause the entire cutting operation to get shut down for at least the day. Certainly not pertinent to any kind of IEDs (yet), but entirely pertinent in the big picture.

How deficient is that for you?

 

I'll wait for the research committee to complete a 2-year study. I'm sticking with a SEAC/SERT/slip-ons, and heat deflector (NMFT).