Do I really need download???
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Cruiser
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 222
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Do I really need download???
I went to my local Harley dealer because I put slip on exhaust and an Arlen Ness Big Sucker air cleaner kit and asked for a stage 1 download on my 06 Street Glide. The dealer told me that they will no longer do a stage 1 download because it is a waste of money for my situation because the slip ons are not real loud and they also told me that the ECM would compensate for such changes because there have been no internal modifications to the motor. I have put around 5k miles on the bike and it runs good and get 44 miles per gallon. I pulled the spark plugs and they have browning about 3-4 threads down. The bike pops on decell other than that it runs perfect. Have any of you heard of or had any similar expierence of a dealer not wanting to reprogram the EMC/ECU??
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,961
Likes: 263
From: Conroe Texas
I am doing this exact experiment with a new Ultra, other than pinging wondering what other signs of causing damage would be.
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/touring-models/280211-d-and-d-super-boss-with-high-flow-seac-installed-w-o-map.html
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/touring-models/280211-d-and-d-super-boss-with-high-flow-seac-installed-w-o-map.html
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,380
Likes: 14
From: Atlanta
Your dealer is telling you something that is not accurate. The intake and exhaust modifications will introduce more air into the system and the programming on the ECM will not compensate for the lean condition of the mixture. That's the very purpose of the HD Download - to adjust the air/fuel mixture for these types of modifications. To run the bike without some sort of ECM reprogramming - either the download or one of the aftermarket tuners- will rob you of power and perhaps even damage the engine.
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 602
Likes: 0
From: Durban South Africa
Please see my posting from yesterday,
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/dyna-glide-models/280009-one-to-think-about.html I was told a similar thing from 2 different dealers,
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/dyna-glide-models/280009-one-to-think-about.html I was told a similar thing from 2 different dealers,
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 602
Likes: 0
From: Durban South Africa
I have just been in contact with my Dealer wanting them to do a Stage1 Re-map for me, I did not believe what he said so tried another Dealer, they both asked what I have done (non-Harley exhausts V&H Straight slip-ons and screaming eagle AC ) and what model my bike is, (2008 FXDC), they inform me Harley have not provided them with a stage I download for the 2008/2009 Dyna, the last one they recieved was for the 2007 96 inch model, the dealers inform me the ex-factory mapping for the 2008/2009 was changed because of the high temps experienced on the 2007 models and as such the 2008/2009 models can have the Screaming Eagle street legal Stage 1 upgrade without remapping, is this correct??? , if this is correct then I would have no option other than to purchase a fuel management system, which one would you recommend,
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Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 602
Likes: 0
From: Durban South Africa
See reply I recieved below when I posed the question to Nightrider,
Our own test bike is an 08 FXDC. We have a set of Khrome Werk HP Plus slip-ons installed on it. All we are using are a set of our XiED's on it.
The closed loop EFI systems used on the TC96 engines will compensate for exhaust/ac upgrades for normal riding conditions. As long as you are not an overly aggressive rider, you can get by without any remapping. The ECM will maintain a 14.6:1 AFR for normal riding situations.
If you want to fine tune the ECM for all riding conditions, (normal, heavy throttle, full throttle) then the Mastertune TTS software would be the most cost effective. The TTS software is basically an aftermarket version of the SE Race Tuner. So using TTS and some Dyno tuning, you would optimize power across the entire riding range. The final alternative would be replacing the OEM ECM with the ThunderMax ECM. The T-Max has an "auto tune" option that takes care of 85%+ of riding conditions.
Estimated costs:
XiED - average rider - $100 - Advantage - simple - Disadvantage - Stage 1 only
TTS - $400 - Dyno Tuning $250-$350 - Advantage - Excellent flexibility, uses OEM ECM, Similar to SERT - Disadvantage - Cost, need experienced tuner
T-Max - $850 - Advantage - high degree of autotuning - Disadvantage - major warranty issues
Stephen Mullen
SPMullen LLC
www.Nightrider.com
www.tuneyourharley.com
Our own test bike is an 08 FXDC. We have a set of Khrome Werk HP Plus slip-ons installed on it. All we are using are a set of our XiED's on it.
The closed loop EFI systems used on the TC96 engines will compensate for exhaust/ac upgrades for normal riding conditions. As long as you are not an overly aggressive rider, you can get by without any remapping. The ECM will maintain a 14.6:1 AFR for normal riding situations.
If you want to fine tune the ECM for all riding conditions, (normal, heavy throttle, full throttle) then the Mastertune TTS software would be the most cost effective. The TTS software is basically an aftermarket version of the SE Race Tuner. So using TTS and some Dyno tuning, you would optimize power across the entire riding range. The final alternative would be replacing the OEM ECM with the ThunderMax ECM. The T-Max has an "auto tune" option that takes care of 85%+ of riding conditions.
Estimated costs:
XiED - average rider - $100 - Advantage - simple - Disadvantage - Stage 1 only
TTS - $400 - Dyno Tuning $250-$350 - Advantage - Excellent flexibility, uses OEM ECM, Similar to SERT - Disadvantage - Cost, need experienced tuner
T-Max - $850 - Advantage - high degree of autotuning - Disadvantage - major warranty issues
Stephen Mullen
SPMullen LLC
www.Nightrider.com
www.tuneyourharley.com
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Road Warrior
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,551
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From: Contributor to HDForums.com
Here's my .02 cents worth.
By all accounts, you need a fuel management system and I'd highly recommend the HD SE Race Tuner. It reprograms the ECM and can (and should) be dyno tuned to your bike. A download, in your case, is NOT going to do the trick.
Yes, it's expensive, but you get exactly what you need for your machine and you can tweak it for any changes you make later down the road.
From a personal standpoint, I didn't like the idea of a PCIII, although many here will tell you that is the way to go. I just didn't like the idea of a third party "box" strapped to my motorcycle as a possible single point of failure.
You've spent plenty on your bike and add on stuff... why ride in coach when you can fly in First Class?
By all accounts, you need a fuel management system and I'd highly recommend the HD SE Race Tuner. It reprograms the ECM and can (and should) be dyno tuned to your bike. A download, in your case, is NOT going to do the trick.
Yes, it's expensive, but you get exactly what you need for your machine and you can tweak it for any changes you make later down the road.
From a personal standpoint, I didn't like the idea of a PCIII, although many here will tell you that is the way to go. I just didn't like the idea of a third party "box" strapped to my motorcycle as a possible single point of failure.
You've spent plenty on your bike and add on stuff... why ride in coach when you can fly in First Class?
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,609
Likes: 1
From: Indy area
I agree with the nightrider guy when he recommended the TTS tuner. The information regarding it can be more completely understood as:
"if there is currently one for your bike, or when they develop it (in the process of completing the lineup now), the new-format TTS map file will work in conjunction with a special datalog file by some now-new TTS software to autotune your VE tables up to 90+% while riding appropriately. And the last bit can be fine-tuned without a dyno, too, by those willing to do the work manually, in steps. Alternatively, a dyno-tuner can use the new software/capabilities to greatly decrease the amount of time necessary for the task."
If there are indeed no stage-1 downloads for those 08/09 models, then maybe there is some truth to the expanded "autotuning" capabilities of those EFI systems. I'd still go with the TTS tuner regardless.
"if there is currently one for your bike, or when they develop it (in the process of completing the lineup now), the new-format TTS map file will work in conjunction with a special datalog file by some now-new TTS software to autotune your VE tables up to 90+% while riding appropriately. And the last bit can be fine-tuned without a dyno, too, by those willing to do the work manually, in steps. Alternatively, a dyno-tuner can use the new software/capabilities to greatly decrease the amount of time necessary for the task."
If there are indeed no stage-1 downloads for those 08/09 models, then maybe there is some truth to the expanded "autotuning" capabilities of those EFI systems. I'd still go with the TTS tuner regardless.