Save Jobs at Harley
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 173
Likes: 2
From: Atlanta, GA
America has always been addicted to free or cheap labor. From indentured servitude, to chattel slavery, to sharecropping, to prisoners as a workforce, to outsourcing to sweatshops, back to prisoners as manufacturers, to outsourcing to developing countries, and onward to whatever model comes next.
Maybe, just maybe, these captains of Capitalism need to detox.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,928
Likes: 285
From: Edmond Oklahoma
The one advantage Harley has over the car manufacturers is the lack of domestic competition that could start the chase for rebates. Chrysler tried to hold off on its rebates a few years but Chevy and Ford force them back into it with their rebates. They never really caught up and look where they are at now.
The good news for most of us is that the value of our used bikes will be set by the market, not by MOCO lowering the prices of new bikes.
Beary
Banned
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 285
Likes: 1
From: Long Island NY
While I can agree with your points in theory, the fact of the matter is that the US consumer wants the best product they can buy for the cheapest price. Exactly what happened to the US steel businesses. Car manufacturers, building builders, etc. found good steel for a ton cheaper overseas. They produced a quality product at an affordable price.
The WalMart mentality is kicking in here. Instead of buying American milled lumber, we buy American trees milled into lumber on Mill SHIPS floating in the Pacific ocean in international waters. So a 2 x 4 costs 2.50 instead of 3.00. Meanwhile, the corporation that owns the mill ship is making an extra buck because all their labor isn't subject to American standards.
This is GOOD?!?!?!
People, you have to get over the materialistic notion that Americans are ENTITLED to good stuff at rockbottom prices.
If I need to illustrate this concept more, watch this first:
http://sendables.jibjab.com/originals/big_box_mart
Now, maybe you are willing to pay twice the price for your vehicles and whatever else you consume to support these high paid jobs, but I am fairly sure that most citizens aren't. They may say in public "I only want ot by US made products and am willing to pay for them" when that most likely isn't the case.
We have a standard of living where we are used to having in bigger houses in the 'burbs, every family member has a car, etc. We afford that by getting cheaper goods which comes at a cost to the US worker. If we were willing to live in apartments/flats in the city and have no car or one car for the whole family, maybe we could afford to have high paid manufacturing jobs.
Endless "wants" have to be paid for one way or the other. We're seeing that in the form of job cuts, bankruptcies, and ultimatley reduced consumption. It would be nice if all the theories and graphs worked perfectly in the real world, but the real world is too imperfect.
Endless "wants" have to be paid for one way or the other. We're seeing that in the form of job cuts, bankruptcies, and ultimatley reduced consumption. It would be nice if all the theories and graphs worked perfectly in the real world, but the real world is too imperfect.
American workers actually PRODUCE everything we have, are worth, or is sold or traded. WHY should the traders and brokers do BETTER than those who actually do the producing?!?!?!
Banned
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 285
Likes: 1
From: Long Island NY
You are incredibly naive if you think the purpose of any business is to provide jobs to the local citizens. The owners of the company put their money into the company expecting that company to sell as much of it's product as possible at the best possible profit. If that means using local labor, great. But, if the local labor gets too expensive, then the company will look to find a cheaper alternative. A successful company provides a lot more than just manufacturing jobs and many of those other jobs are more skilled and will remain whether manufacturing is done elsewhere or not. A more successful company (possibly one that has been able to reduce the price of its product and sell more units) will generate more of those higher skilled jobs.
That is partly BS. A company will sell it's goods at the highest possible price but if demand dries up then any company will try to find ways to reduce its prices. If it has to reduce them to below its cost of production, it will either find ways to reduce its cost of production or go out of business.
Hmmm. Consumers (including many union members) seem to appreciate the fact that Walmart has essentially increased consumer's standard of living by providing goods cheaper.
How many WalMArt employees do YOU iknow that ride a HArley???
Couldn't agree more. Speculators are looking for a quick buck but investors are risking their capital by buying a company with the expectation that the company will maximize it's profit over time and provide the investor with a reasonable return on his capital. If that means finding a way to reduce costs by replacing high cost labor then, so be it.
It is NOT reasonable to expect a 100% ROI every year.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,788
Likes: 4
From: Here
NO American worker or their wages or benefits caused the financial issues we face today. This was all caused by the bankers and the brokers and the Wall Streeters who were looking for quick bucks and life on easystreet without ANY effort or improvement in actual output or production.
Some poor US worker (I use US because there are other countries that make up "America") walks into a bank and says they want to buy a house for example. Banker says "No problem. We will loan you $XXX for 30 years conventional, or $XXXXXXXXX on a 30 yr interest only loan with a balloon payment due some time in the future." What happens next? They sign on the dotted line for $XXXXXXXXX that they have no chance of ever paying back. This was all good until the market realized that everyone was overextended and bought more than they could afford. All of a sudden, housing prices collapse and since we can't sell a house for less than we owe the bank, we go into foreclosure.
I know you think this is the bankers fault, and I believe some blame rests there (this is what happens when we have less govt regulation in certain industries since people will generally do what is in their own best interests). However, nobody forced the poor US worker to buy more than they could afford, but here we are with the classic "it's not my fault" argument.
If we would all live within our means, we could skip this discussion and go back to fighting over Dino vs Syn oil.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,928
Likes: 285
From: Edmond Oklahoma
NO American worker or their wages or benefits caused the financial issues we face today. This was all caused by the bankers and the brokers and the Wall Streeters who were looking for quick bucks and life on easystreet without ANY effort or improvement in actual output or production.
American workers actually PRODUCE everything we have, are worth, or is sold or traded. WHY should the traders and brokers do BETTER than those who actually do the producing?!?!?!
American workers actually PRODUCE everything we have, are worth, or is sold or traded. WHY should the traders and brokers do BETTER than those who actually do the producing?!?!?!
Yea right! I'm personally the victom of Union bullying, and I belong to a union. Unions don't care about profits or long range survival, they only care about getting the most they can NOW. It was good media PR convincing folks that Wall Street is the bad guy, but the media is only out to protect their politics, not the little guys. It wasn't the traders or brokers who took down the car companies, it was the huge wages and retirement plans. You think I'm wrong, look whats changing at GM now.
It will be interesting, maybe intertaining to watch how GM pulls out of this mess now that they are being run by a more socialistic management because history shows that state manage companies don't compete well in a fair free market. Of course we could try and just take away the free market and if that is the case, history shows that nobody does better then.
Beary
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,398
Likes: 34
From: Newport news, Virginia
"America needs more high paid jobs, especially in manufacturing, not less."
I couldn't agree more but only if these job are highly skilled. I have worked in the manufacturing sector for years and personally I do feel I am over paid. There are alot of other jobs out there with people who work harder and smarter but make alot less money than me. For me my job in manufacturing does not challenge in the slightest, but it does pay the bills.
I couldn't agree more but only if these job are highly skilled. I have worked in the manufacturing sector for years and personally I do feel I am over paid. There are alot of other jobs out there with people who work harder and smarter but make alot less money than me. For me my job in manufacturing does not challenge in the slightest, but it does pay the bills.
How come a UAW worker can make upwards of $60 an hour for only turning a few bolts but can't get more than $23 as an acft mechanic and electrician with over 30 years experience and peoples lives hang on people like us ensuring our acft are safe to fly?
That my man is a major disparity in pay and should not be tolerated. They should be paid based on the type and amount of work they perform and the impact they have on the end result not on some union negotiator thinks they should be paid!
It is said that over half money we pay for a car (or motorcycle) goes to pay those overinflated union wages.
flame suit on!
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,034
Likes: 45
From: Michigan
yup we pay prolly 10k too much for a car or truck... Ive never worked in a union shop but EVEN THOUGH i BELIEVE THEY ARE OVER PAYED ID LIKE TO have had them behind me cause id either still be working or be retired and not on the unenjoyment line..
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,788
Likes: 4
From: Here
Enough economic talk. I'm going to change my blinker fluid and re-pack my muffler bearings.