Another oil question
Tourer
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 426
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From: Tucson, AZ
From wiki:
A more serious problem was that of overheating. Piston temperatures in particular were troubling. Nicolae Glaja, a Romanian-born engineer, initially tackled the problem by installing oil jets in the crankcase, aimed so that they sprayed the piston crown from underneath. While this cooled the pistons, the oil temperature then became intolerably high. Skip Metz, engineering project leader for the engine, and his team then came up with installation of an oil cooler, with good results. However, the styling and marketing departments felt that this fix looked too much like a band-aid solution. It seemed to be an admission that Harley-Davidson had designed an engine that ran too hot. Management agreed, and the 1998 release date was also passed. Returning to the drawing board, the engineers examined the entire oil system. The excessive oil temperature was not just the result of heat coming from the piston crowns, but from the cylinder head and rocker boxes. Engineer Ben Vandenhoeven then initiated a series of test runs restricting oil flow to specific areas of the engine, with surprising results. In the initial design the concept was that flowing large amounts of oil through the rocker boxes (much more than was actually needed for lubrication) would help cool the heads. In actuality, not much cooling was provided for the heads. Rather, the heads were heating the oil. The oil flow to the rocker boxes was cut down to about one-sixth of the initial design flow, still adequate for lubrication, and this brought the operating oil temperatures to around 220 degrees. The engines were released for the 1999 model year. High operating temperatures have continued to plague the Twin Cam engines, although the engineering refinements have resulted in a reliable and smooth-running engine.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,979
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From: Northern Colorado
Isn't that about the same time Harley started selling synthetic?
Last edited by NoCoLoco; May 26, 2010 at 09:02 PM.
Tourer
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 426
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From: Tucson, AZ
Could be. I've only had H-Ds since 2005. The TC88 debuted in 1999 I believe. I've been running Motul 20w50 synthetic blend in all my bikes (engine oil) for about 15 years now. I believe that an engine will run cooler with synthetic oil, maybe even 5 degrees cooler, and it doesn't break down till much higher temps. It's the best way to go if cost is not a problem.
Last edited by Tucson_Tim; May 26, 2010 at 09:10 PM.
Account Retired
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,245
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From: Here
I think most of us will agree that friction causes heat. The only way the HD twin cam engine is cooled is air, lubricant and maybe an oil cooler. Independent test have proven that Synthetic oil reduces friction, which in turn reduces heat. I don't have the files, they are locked in file cabinet's at my Employer where I retired in 2006. We ran dozens of test on gear assemblies that cost lot's of $$ to rebuild. We sent oil to independent labs for testing of metal and other deposit's plus viscosity breakdown, when and how severe. Synthetic lubes proved without a doubt to be far superior to Dino oil. It cut our downtime and overall cost in half by switching to synthetic oils and gear lubes. We were in a meeting one day with one of Castrols Engineers. someone joking ask him how did business's like Jiffy lube come up with the 3000 mile oil change idea. He said Dino oil starts breaking down, dropping in it's vicosity rating between 2500 and 3000 miles. sooner if over heated or in severe running condition's. That's where the 3000 mile oil change came from. my advice to the OP, pick a good Synthetic oil and use it. I think your engine will be happy....
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,977
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From: Nevada
I can tell you without a doubt that a true synthetic will run cooler given the same conditions. But this difference will only be a few degrees. Syns will do other things better than Dino. They flow better at low temps, they provide more protection from metal to metal or better film strength. They shear less causing less viscocity loss. And they last longer. So there is no question that they are better than Dino. Having said all that, depending on the application and change interval they are fine to use. The heat of an air cooled engine makesthem the best choice, but you can certainly go 5000 miles with no problem and are wasting money changing before.
Another thing, oil turning dark is not an indicator that it is bad. Many syns and dino's turn dark very quickly. That is a function of the additive package.
True syns are amsoil, redline, royal purple and others. Mobil 1 is not a true synthetic and uses a small amount of group 3 Dino oil. But for all practical purposes it is a synthetic and a very good oil.
So having said that, if you are bound and determined to change every 3000 miles, then just use a good Dino. If you can go 5000, then a syn is without a better lubricant. Choice is up to you. It's your bike and your money
Another thing, oil turning dark is not an indicator that it is bad. Many syns and dino's turn dark very quickly. That is a function of the additive package.
True syns are amsoil, redline, royal purple and others. Mobil 1 is not a true synthetic and uses a small amount of group 3 Dino oil. But for all practical purposes it is a synthetic and a very good oil.
So having said that, if you are bound and determined to change every 3000 miles, then just use a good Dino. If you can go 5000, then a syn is without a better lubricant. Choice is up to you. It's your bike and your money
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 654
Likes: 11
"Not that I am an expert, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express"..... Now that's what makes this forum fun.
I would love to know why anybody changes there oil after 3K miles.
Go onto the amsoil website and review their information for 20-50 oil. Changing oil MORE FREQUENTLY than 15K is a TOTAL WASTE OF MONEY! That's what the OIL manufacturer - whose MAKING and SELLING the product is saying. So why are you changing every 3K?
But then again I'll use another writer's line:
Not that I am an expert, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express
Ride In Peace
I would love to know why anybody changes there oil after 3K miles.
Go onto the amsoil website and review their information for 20-50 oil. Changing oil MORE FREQUENTLY than 15K is a TOTAL WASTE OF MONEY! That's what the OIL manufacturer - whose MAKING and SELLING the product is saying. So why are you changing every 3K?
But then again I'll use another writer's line:
Not that I am an expert, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express
Ride In Peace
Road Captain
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 540
Likes: 3
From: Nooga, TN
nvsteve,
Not many people are aware of this, but the govt allows a certain amount of group 3 oil to be called synthetic. Group 3 is actually highly refined dino. Mobil 1 in a move to reduce cost actually uses some Group 3 oils. Amsoil, redline, royal purple and others use only Group 4 or true synthetic. So Mobil 1 is Group 4 and Group 3 mixture, but is still allowed to be called a synthetic. Mobil 1 has done a good job of keeping it quiet and their oil is still a very very good oil. You can read more about this on sites like Bob is the Oil Guy, etc.
It is not a big deal and I would not hesitate to use Mobil 1 15-50 in a Harley. I tend to use amsoil in the engine, because I am a geek/engineer and I think it it one of the best. But there are others that are equally good and I will never enter into an argument over the "best."
Not many people are aware of this, but the govt allows a certain amount of group 3 oil to be called synthetic. Group 3 is actually highly refined dino. Mobil 1 in a move to reduce cost actually uses some Group 3 oils. Amsoil, redline, royal purple and others use only Group 4 or true synthetic. So Mobil 1 is Group 4 and Group 3 mixture, but is still allowed to be called a synthetic. Mobil 1 has done a good job of keeping it quiet and their oil is still a very very good oil. You can read more about this on sites like Bob is the Oil Guy, etc.
It is not a big deal and I would not hesitate to use Mobil 1 15-50 in a Harley. I tend to use amsoil in the engine, because I am a geek/engineer and I think it it one of the best. But there are others that are equally good and I will never enter into an argument over the "best."