HD to leave Milwaukee
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 93
Likes: 1
From: Grand Prairie, TX
This, over the couse of history, has been done by almost every major manufacturer that has union employees. Look at the auto makers, did you see how much money a fork lift driver made? When wages exceed a company's ability to be profitable then they are forced to make changes. I'm not saying I'm for or against unions but when a fork lift driver makes $50 an hour wages are too high.
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 874
Likes: 2
From: Southern Arizona
I don't think it's just the union wage that is a problem, but when a company has to pay 100% of the medical, not only for current employees but also for retirees, it becomes a strain. The union bus drivers in Tucson are striking right now and are really pissing off the citizens. In a declining economy, they should just be happy to have a job because there are plenty of folks here that would be willing to step right into their places at the current pay scale and benefits. 100% paid medical and 80% pay on retirement.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 3
From: Southeastern Michigan
This argument won't be settled until there are no unions. Within 5 years of that, the new unions will be established to fight for the rights of workers against the tyranical corporate business class. Just look at history. It will happen again.
Nearly everyone forgets where they came from when big money is involved.
Nearly everyone forgets where they came from when big money is involved.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
From: Lebanon, TN
There are many reasons they maybe considering relocation. Unions are probably one of the main considerations. Unions have destroyed the auto industry. Most local governments are under stress do to unioniazation of its workers. Many Union members proclaim loyalty to their union not the manufacturer who pays their salary. The Unions have gotten rich at the expense of its members and the manufactuers and in the end the members will pay with lost jobs.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,140
Likes: 17
From: Wisconsin
Yes.
A FAR cry from that posters stated $208,000.
Also, lets not make a mistake...that's TOTAL cost to the company.
If the worker makes $28 per hour, he earns $58,240 dollars.
My wife gave me the companies added cost amount of $12 per hour, which was being generous.
She was a Director in Finance of a Corporation, I take her word for it.
A FAR cry from that posters stated $208,000.
Also, lets not make a mistake...that's TOTAL cost to the company.
If the worker makes $28 per hour, he earns $58,240 dollars.
My wife gave me the companies added cost amount of $12 per hour, which was being generous.
She was a Director in Finance of a Corporation, I take her word for it.
Novice
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: Cookeville, Tn.
According to a friend of mine that has knowledge of the going on's at the State Capital in Nashville, Harley is looking at three sites in Tennessee, He would and will not tell where but if I was betting the former GM plant at Spring Hill, Tn. is probably available. Wouldn't that be nice for Harley to move in a already built plant just waiting on someone from the north. That is a fact and not rumor......
Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,582
Likes: 72
From: North East
Whenever a converstaion like this begins almost everyone feels compelled to share their perspective regarding who's at fault. Here's a news flash. It's everbody's fault. For the last 100+ years the unions and Harley have been making demands and agreeing to meet somewhere in between. Now it appears the game has changed. Harley has decided they need more concessions from the union. They have that right. Harley has decided they need tax concessions from the state. They have that right. If Harley is ready to move away from Milwaukee it would appear they have all the cards.
It makes no difference how the unions, the state of Wisconsin and Harley arrived at todays situation. The question is what are they going to do moving forward. If Harley has developed a plan moving forward that doesn't include the prime manufacturing of motorcycle components in Milwaukee, they have every right to do so. Last I checked neither the state of Wisconsin nor the unions have the key to Harleys front door.
It makes no difference how the unions, the state of Wisconsin and Harley arrived at todays situation. The question is what are they going to do moving forward. If Harley has developed a plan moving forward that doesn't include the prime manufacturing of motorcycle components in Milwaukee, they have every right to do so. Last I checked neither the state of Wisconsin nor the unions have the key to Harleys front door.
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Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,310
Likes: 1,079
First off let me just say I am not a union member, have never been a union member and will probably never be a union member. I am a machinist at an independent job shop and do okay for myself.
That said...
I don't think it was a fluke that America's greatest prosperity of the 1950-1960's also just happened to be at a time when Union membership was highest.
I also don't believe I have ever met the $50/hr union worker around here and we have the paper mills here and their costs are higher than the auto industry when it comes to human resources.
I also don't believe these Unions signed these contracts themselves, someone signing the checks had to agree to them in the first place.
I am not defending Unions, but they do have a place, I can't believe how many blue collar folks are so intent on being against their own socio-economic interests, it fascinates me.
That said...
I don't think it was a fluke that America's greatest prosperity of the 1950-1960's also just happened to be at a time when Union membership was highest.
I also don't believe I have ever met the $50/hr union worker around here and we have the paper mills here and their costs are higher than the auto industry when it comes to human resources.
I also don't believe these Unions signed these contracts themselves, someone signing the checks had to agree to them in the first place.
I am not defending Unions, but they do have a place, I can't believe how many blue collar folks are so intent on being against their own socio-economic interests, it fascinates me.
Unfortunately unions are an anachronism that have outlived their usefullness in a global economy. It's only purpose now is as an "albatross" or "anchor around the neck" of future US prosperity. If we can't be competitive, we will quickly be surpassed by China and other nations. China's close on our heels today as the 2nd largest economy and will pass us by 2025.
Unions will be long forgotten by that time. The only question that remains is how long will we let unions keep us from at least trying to compete on a global scale. The longer we wait to shed the inflexibility and bloated costs of unions, the deeper the hole we'll find the US in when we find ourselves in second place.
Last edited by Heatwave; Aug 5, 2010 at 12:42 PM.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,410
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville, TN
I have to agree and disagree. I believe the $28/hr figure is probably close. That is the actual wage being earned, what is on the paycheck before taxes. I think the added cost of $12/hr is low, unless that's just certain items and not fully burdened. Fully burdened are the wages plus every other expense the company has, insurance, comp, pension, unemployment, social security, % of the lights, heat,etc., all the stuff that keeps the business moving. At our company the wage is typically one third of the fully burdened rate, so in this case the employee would make $28/hr but is costing the company $84/hr. So yeah, you're looking at about $175,000 per year, although the employee is only making the $58,000.
How you can charge that back as employee wages is beyond me.
Whether the employee is making $2.80 or $28 per hour, he still has to see to do his job.
Union or non-Union...no lights, no company.
Would you people rather these employee's have no insurance?
No retirement?
Insurance & Retirement aren't fully funded by the company, in most cases.
You also can't say Workers Comp should be included as part of an employee's wage.
There are laws regarding Workers Comp...employees have ZERO control over this.
Not only that, it's protection for the company as well.
One $1 million gollar lawsuit lost because a company doesn't have Workers Comp...could pay FOR having Workers Comp for years.
Tell me, just how many CEO's have put in a full 30 years then retired for any company?
Very few.
CEO's move on...the grunts are in it for the long haul, usually.
I stand by my original figure of approximately $40 per hour.