that may be so, but in order for it to be a fair comparison, you can't push one bike beyond it's limits, but keep the other bike within them...

under ideal conditions, you can make an abs bike stop just as fast as a non abs bike, just don't go beyond the traction limits of the tires. just as you wouldn't on a non abs bike.

 

I'm going to cut and paste a post I made on an earlier thread. There are a lot of misconceptions about ABS:

The original thread is this one:

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/touri...ally-work.html

I've had a lot of experience with the HD ABS since it was introduced on the police motors in '05. Of course from '05 to "07 was the initial system, while the '08 and newer is the current system mated to the Brembo brakes.

The first thing to understand is how ABS works. Its sensors determine, through measurement of wheel speed when a lock-up is incipient. The system then begins modulating the brakes (releasing and re-applying them) at something like 6 or 7 times a second. This keeps something near the maximum braking, while allowing the wheels to keep rolling. There are two reasons a rolling tire is good. The first is the only one that matters for us on a motor - only a rolling tire can keep the motor upright. The second is that a skidding tire takes longer to stop. In a car both reasons are important, since ABS allows both a shorter stop than a skid, and allows the car to be steered.

Now a couple of more foundation points:

From the above you should realize ABS will not make you stop faster. In fact a perfect rider, under perfect conditions, can stop shorter without ABS, than with ABS. This is because ABS works by backing way slightly from maximum braking. The primary braking exercise in motor school is the Brake and Escape, that involves slowing from 40 MPH in less than 62 feet to a speed that allows maneuvering around a tight obstacle. When I started, ABS wasn't around yet. In every class we'd usually get one significant crash due to a locked front wheel the student did not handle properly (release immediately and properly re-apply). On top of that everyone was leaving a little of their braking power on the table, for fear of a lock-up. The point is these were very well trained riders, with perfect road conditions, reacting to a known hazard. Even then there were problems.

For training purposes, student officers are taught to brake without activating the ABS. If they do, it's not a successful run. Even an ABS equipped motor will stop shorter if the ABS is not activated.

In the Brake and Escape, if ABS is deliberately activated (through improper application of the brakes) and held throughout the exercise, it becomes very difficult to get the necessary slowing in the distance allowed.

So, what all the above is designed to point out is that ABS isn't the absolute fastest way to stop a motorcycle (or any vehicle). I suppose this is the point the guys who claim they don't want ABS are trying to make.

HOWEVER,

First, it's extremely unlikely that when you need maximum braking you will have perfect road conditions. Anything that changes the friction on your braking path it likely to cause a wheel lock. A pothole, a manhole, a painted line, sand, oil, or anything that is more slippery than the road surface will obviously cause an impending skid to become a locked-wheel skid.

Second, even if the road surface is perfect, are you willing to bet your life (or at least bet injury and property damage) that your braking skills are perfect? If your braking at the threshold, the only reason would be an emergency has arisen that you failed to foresee. I've practiced threshold braking probably in excess of 1000 repetitions, and yet have used the skill only once or twice on the road. Those times on the road I was fortunate enough to not lock a wheel. Practice and skill development is a big part of the reason why; good luck is another big part.

Finally, having ABS gives you the confidence to brake to the maximum. As I mentioned above, in the pre-ABS days, running the brake and escape exercise, I know I was always leaving a little of the motor's braking power on the table, for fear of locking a wheel. I was still successful, but not as confident as I could be. In my case this would manifest itself in uneven speed at the entry of the exercise. We're checked with radar, and 40 MPH is the correct speed to enter. A minimum of 38 MPH is required for a passing run. In the days before ABS my speeds would range from 38 up to about 43 MPH. Once I was able to take away the concern of locking a wheel, I was able to concentrate on dialing it in. My first exam on an ABS motor all four of my test runs were dead-on 40 MPH. My point is not simply to brag. Rather it's to illustrate that when you're braking to the threshold you have plenty to worry about. ABS allows you to concentrate on the important issues (evaluating the hazard, planning an escape route, downshifting to be in the proper gear should the hazard clear, etc) rather than simply concerning yourself with the mechanics of getting the maximum you can out of your brakes.

The technique of braking is exactly the same whether your motorcycle has ABS or not. The difference comes when the technique has failed. On a non-ABS motor it requires an immediate release and proper re-application, to handle a front wheel lock-up. That takes time, and time equals distance. It also takes a cool reaction to a hot situation. On an ABS motor, if the ABS activates, it IS an indication you've made a braking error. However, your response is simply keep pulling the lever, or pressing the pedal. As noted above, it will lengthen your braking distance, but by very little, and by far less than the method needed on a non-ABS motor. This means you can sit down later and consider how your braking error occurred, rather than letting the accident reconstructionist do it for you. (By the way if you have ABS, and you've felt it activate on the street, you should figure out what you're doing wrong in your braking, because you are doing something that can be improved).

So, the goal if you have ABS is to never know it's there. Just like all your other forms of insurance, and your other safety equipment. Unlike a helmet, a seat belt, an air bag, or car insurance, the beauty of ABS is it can jump in to prevent an accident, not just lessen the severity, or try to fix things later.

When you get the ABS motor, take it out to a parking lot and do some braking with it. Deliberately over-brake with the front and the rear, to activate the system in each. This way you'll know what it feels like, both in the lever/pedal, and how it makes the motorcycle behave (you'll feel the "brake-release-brake-release" as it modulates). The DVD that Harley provides with the ABS motors is well worth watching. It explains ABS, and it explains how the H-D system works and what you'll see and feel.

Finally, here are two videos:

Me on an ABS equipped motor (40 MPH entry speed):



And my friend David on a non-ABS motor (also 40 MPH entry):



It's the exact same exercise, run at the same speed. Hopefully you notice that the confidence imparted by the ABS allows me to run it a little more smoothly. However, the ABS system was not activated, and the motorcycle stops just as quickly as the non-ABS motor (in fact a little more quickly since the Brembos are a superior brake to the prior iteration).

Harris
Denver, CO

www.youtube.com/conedown

 

There is an ABS update available from the MOCO for the 09 models. The 2010 and newer bikes already have this from the factory. I had it done to my 09 Ultra and I think it does improve ABS function. Mainly, I think the system cycles a bit faster and it not as likely to activate prematurely. Here's a link to the forum that shows a picture of the the service bulletin.

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/4388748-post1.html

Having said that, what others have said in the conversation is true. You should be braking with both ends of the motorcycle. ABS doesn't guaranty you'll stop faster in all conditions, only that you've got a better chance of stopping under full control, and you're not going to lock up the front end and go down so there's no need to worry about that.

If you haven't had the update done to your 09 bike, I'd highly recommend you do that.

Best of luck & Ride Safe,
Steve R.

 

nice one. Harris

I was in earlier on in this thread, and pretty much am of the pull it and concentrate on finding a path school.

I am coming from earlier generation bikes with less effective brakes.

Reading your post I realize anew that I still have more learning and practice ahead of me.

thanks, Mike

 

Great description Harris. Thanks.

 

Both brakes every time. I have had the ABS kick in on the rear while braking before, but the front held and I have been able to stop. I have had a rear tire lock on an old bike of mine when a deer ran out in front of me. ABS is a very good thing.

 

Roadlessons - your post really put it right and clear for me. Really good explanation of how ABS keeps you out of trouble rather than improves braking performance. If ABS kicks in it means you've mis-read the situation (in the view of the bikes "brain") and is trying to assist you in not stacking it. Nothing to do with improving performance everything to do with helping people who have likely screwed up.

However sometimes the ABS can be a bit "eager" and I've found with the rear on my '08 RKC on gravel driveways or sand drift for example it comes in when I don't need it to and I have to modify my style a bit to try to eliminate that - personally don't like that but it's a small detail overall.

Summary - I don't mind ABS - but if it kicks in I feel like I've screwed up and am being told off.

 

You have defined it quite well. Of course none of us likes to have an error pointed out. On the plus side the ABS only tells you, only tells you one time, and doesn't go on and on to her relatives and friends about your mistake.

Harris
Denver, CO

www.youtbe.com/conedown

 

That is the perfect expexplanation! You can learn to be a better rider from why and when the ABS kicked in. Well said.

 

Great explanation Motorlessons. I have taken many driving courses that have us test different vehicles both with the ABS, then taking out the relay on the same vehicle without ABS. You are bang on in your description. There are ABS systems out there that plain old suck and need to be upgraded. I just got my 2009 FLHP and this is going to be my first bike with ABS. I am glad to hear that it seems like a good system. Up here in the north with road conditions the way they are this time of year ABS saves many accidents with untrained drivers. I can't wait until the snow melts to try mine out.