Ethanol and Harleys
Cruiser
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 101
Likes: 1
From: Brazil
That's not true, because you're confusing BTU levels with energy efficiency. BTU levels are the amount of energy it takes to boil water, not to combust and turn a crank with the pressure. Ethanol-optimized engines can get the same or better mileage than a gasoline-optimized engine. Ethanol produces less mpg in a gasoline-optimized engine because the engine is not set up to run ethanol efficiently (not set up to take advantage of EtOH's superior combustion advantages). Ethanol (EtOH) is more efficient tha gasoline but you must change the setup of the engine to take advantage of it, just as you would have to change the alcohol engine to burn gasoline efficiently. We have gasoline engines today instead of alcohol engines because during motoring's golden years, gasoline was cheaper and also because it was illegal to possess between 1920 and 1933. Yes my background is mostly organic chemistry.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,336
Likes: 67
From: SW Minnesota
cezairomaia, thanks for your post. It was very informative, if 20 percent is the difference between gas engines and alcohol based engines.
Last edited by MNPGRider; Jan 24, 2011 at 07:23 PM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,336
Likes: 67
From: SW Minnesota
Here's a good article from a source close to us here in Mn, which has been an ethanol state for a decade, on converting a Harley to run on E-85. Scroll down, as there is a big blank spot on the article.
http://www.flexfuelkit.com.au/articl...nol/Page1.html
http://www.flexfuelkit.com.au/articl...nol/Page1.html
Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: Portland, OR
+1 barring spills and the politics of oil production (both of which can be controlled by adjusting behavior), oil production and use is virtually a green technology compared to using plant starch to produce alcohol.
Brazil is burning down or bulldozing every acre it can to produce the fuel it needs to maintain its standard of living as a third world country. Need oil? Poke a hole and suck some up. Need eth? Plow up a few hundred million acres. I wonder which one has more negative impact on the environment.
Not saying we shouldn't do everything we can to conserve, but eth instead of oil to benefit the world? Puhlease...
Brazil is burning down or bulldozing every acre it can to produce the fuel it needs to maintain its standard of living as a third world country. Need oil? Poke a hole and suck some up. Need eth? Plow up a few hundred million acres. I wonder which one has more negative impact on the environment.
Not saying we shouldn't do everything we can to conserve, but eth instead of oil to benefit the world? Puhlease...
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,336
Likes: 67
From: SW Minnesota
mfuchs, you are missing the carbon element. Drilling for and burning oil is releasing carbon that has been stored for millions of years, supposedly contributing to global warming by releasing CO2 to the atmosphere.
Raising and burning crop residue is carbon neutral (excluding the oil used to do so).
Raising and burning crop residue is carbon neutral (excluding the oil used to do so).
Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: Portland, OR
mfuchs, you are missing the carbon element. Drilling for and burning oil is releasing carbon that has been stored for millions of years, supposedly contributing to global warming by releasing CO2 to the atmosphere.
Raising and burning crop residue is carbon neutral (excluding the oil used to do so).
Raising and burning crop residue is carbon neutral (excluding the oil used to do so).
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 31
From: earth
I appreciate the links to the general info, and the left field E85 project, but I was looking for something a little more specific, like the actual values of compression, squish band, tolerances, piston dome style, injectors, cam profile, and tuning considerations for a Twin Cam "set up", or optimized, to run on the predominantly available E10. I should specified Harley Twin Cam engine instead of gasoline engine, I just figured it was understood in a thread titled Ethanol and Harleys. We got all these folks bangin’ the drum for ethanol, they just aint tying it to the Harleys. E10 has been commonplace long enough now to influence build blueprints. So, what are Harley Twin Cam engine builders doing differently now to achieve maximum performance from E10 fuel? Engines are being built every day, somebody has to have a qualified answer to this.
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
6 Weirdest Harley-Davidsons Ever Sold to the Public
Verdad Gallardo
7 Times Harley-Davidson Chucked Tradition Out the Window
Verdad Gallardo
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Verdad Gallardo
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
Road Captain
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 507
Likes: 1
From: Portland, OR
I appreciate the links to the general info, and the left field E85 project, but I was looking for something a little more specific, like the actual values of compression, squish band, tolerances, piston dome style, injectors, cam profile, and tuning considerations for a Twin Cam "set up", or optimized, to run on the predominantly available E10. I should specified Harley Twin Cam engine instead of gasoline engine, I just figured it was understood in a thread titled Ethanol and Harleys. We got all these folks bangin the drum for ethanol, they just aint tying it to the Harleys. E10 has been commonplace long enough now to influence build blueprints. So, what are Harley Twin Cam engine builders doing differently now to achieve maximum performance from E10 fuel? Engines are being built every day, somebody has to have a qualified answer to this.
Generally:
Need a richer mixture as eth goes up because eth needs it to burn efficiently, and because you need 1.53 gals of eth to do same work as 1 gal gas.
Can advance timing significantly because eth has higher octane value than gas. A lot of 92 (r+m) stuff uses crap gas with eth to give 92. If you made your own mix you could get much higher octane than you can buy at the pump.
Should be able to make changes to increase compression beyond what you could do with just gas.
Would have to use more corrosion resistant materials, although current materials in recent bikes should be okay.
Need to get a bigger tank as % of eth goes up.